About Those Hobbit Names - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Peregrin Took · 07-06-2008, 10:34 PM

Stumbling upon this interesting topic of Hobbit names. I'm confused as to why the Hobbits are given their names - Peregrin Took and Frodo Baggins, for example - and then on top of that they have "real Hobbit names" such as Pippin's "Razanur Tuk" and Frodo's "Maura Labingi".

I don't understand this, as I thought Hobbits spoke Westron? Why do they have "real" Hobbit names? If that was their name why didn't people call them that? Am I missing something here?

Thanks!

Nerwen · 07-06-2008, 11:34 PM

The English used in The Lord of the Rings is supposed to be a translation of Westron, so the names used are meant to be English equivalents of the alien-sounding "real" names.

–Welcome to the Downs, Peregrin Took. I can't believe nobody has taken your screenname already!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-07-2008, 12:10 AM

Old user-names become available again after the old accounts are deleted, inactive for a certain period.

Nerwen explains the issue well. The names, though, are still an interesting topic. I recall discovering that Frodo and Sam weren't really Frodo and Sam, and feeling quite strange about it. I wasn't too happy, if you know what I mean. I'd invested all that time in the names only to find they were mere 'versions'. Now I'm older and understand that nearly every name we have is a version of some kind.

Peregrin Took · 07-07-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

–Welcome to the Downs, Peregrin Took. I can't believe nobody has taken your screenname already!

I know! Thankfully for me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Old user-names become available again after the old accounts are deleted, inactive for a certain period.

I don't think that's the case - for there are plenty of usernames on the user list who have been inactive probably since they signed up. There is also somebody who had the name PeregrinTook, with no space, and they have been inactive for years. So, I believe I got lucky!

You'd be surprised how many key names aren't taken here. I don't believe anybody has the name of Meriadoc Brandybuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer

Nerwen explains the issue well. The names, though, are still an interesting topic. I recall discovering that Frodo and Sam weren't really Frodo and Sam, and feeling quite strange about it. I wasn't too happy, if you know what I mean. I'd invested all that time in the names only to find they were mere 'versions'. Now I'm older and understand that nearly every name we have is a version of some kind.

This isn't the first time I've heard about it, but it's the first time I thought to find out a little more on the issue. I know what you mean - I would like to think the names we read, such as Pippin and Frodo, were actually their names. Through translation, I suppose that's correct.

Nerwen- I know that Westron is translated into English, I just wasn't completely sure if that was the case for the Hobbits, too.

Thank you both!

Galin · 07-09-2008, 08:37 AM

Not all the Hobbit-names have been translated of course, but Tolkien did note that he altered the masculine -a to -o, thus Bilba should be the real Westron name of Bilbo (along with Maura if the draft texts are raised).

With Frodo Tolkien goes that extra mile again.

'Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. It's Old English form was Fróda. Its obvious connection is with the old word fród meaning etymologically 'wise by experience', but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North.' JRRT, 1955 letter to Richard Jeffery

So, could a person who lived many years before Old English arose in the world have a name *Froda? Possible. Would it have a meaning connected to 'experience wisdom'... ah possible again, but Orthanc was already a bit too convenient, though fun. Tolkien already had to explain the name Gandalf, or the Dwarf-names, as translations, why not some of the Hobbits too. And this really took off in other ways, for if one used English to translate Westron then one could use other Primary World languages to represent internal languages actually spoken in Frodo's day.

There was no one named Éowyn, Éomer, and no Rohir spoke Old English, and I think Tolkien enjoyed this conceit of translation, adding to the impression of reality (and explaining certain questions that might be raised by Readers), giving these Primary World tongues a part to play, and giving him some word-play at the same time.

Note that in the drafts it is explained that there was no word maur- in contemporary Westron, but in the archaic language of the Rohirrim it meant 'wise, experienced'.

Thinlómien · 07-09-2008, 05:39 PM

I had quite forgotten about this - if not about the existence of translation, but at least of the actual names of the Hobbits. I had a sudden urge to think that if I ever have a daughter, I just might have to name her Maura...!

To be a bit more serious and on-topic, I must say this issue is a bit confusing to me too. It does not feel nice to use the "wrong names of the heroes, but then again, would it be the same if they had those alien names? I don't think so. The Hobbits would indeed feel a little less familiar to me - and I'm Finnish, not English like the "primary audience". I trust Tolkien knew what he was doing.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-09-2008, 06:03 PM

Regarding our earlier side-note, our newest forum member is Aragorn. I suspect this evidence supports my case.

Formendacil · 07-09-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Now I'm older and understand that nearly every name we have is a version of some kind.

Wait a minute, Aimé, are you trying to saying that "Eomer of the Rohirrim" is just a version of some kind?

Peregrin Took · 07-09-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Regarding our earlier side-note, our newest forum member is Aragorn. I suspect this evidence supports my case.

Haha, I still must disagree...I like thinking I got lucky

Side-note: Just maybe nobody thought to create an "Aragorn" because they all kept thinking it was taken without looking it up?

Edit: When looking through the member forum, I notice a lot of last visited: 1969. All the same day and year, and obviously this site was not around in 69, let alone the internet. So if those are still there, which I assume are names that people made and just never used, they couldn't just free dormant names up.

If an admin sees this, could you clear this up for us? Thanks!

Peregrin Took · 07-09-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

To be a bit more serious and on-topic, I must say this issue is a bit confusing to me too. It does not feel nice to use the "wrong names of the heroes, but then again, would it be the same if they had those alien names? I don't think so. The Hobbits would indeed feel a little less familiar to me - and I'm Finnish, not English like the "primary audience". I trust Tolkien knew what he was doing.

I agree - the "real" names I mentioned just do not roll off the tounge as nicely as the translated ones.

Galin · 07-09-2008, 07:36 PM

It might be that Tolkien rejected Maura, since it appears in a draft and not in the final version published by Tolkien himself. There might be other reasons it was 'left out' however, but it was left out in any case.

Peregrin Took · 07-09-2008, 07:37 PM

Maura sounds a lot like Moria!

Morthoron · 07-10-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrin Took

I don't think that's the case - for there are plenty of usernames on the user list who have been inactive probably since they signed up. There is also somebody who had the name PeregrinTook, with no space, and they have been inactive for years. So, I believe I got lucky!

You'd be surprised how many key names aren't taken here. I don't believe anybody has the name of Meriadoc Brandybuck.

The names Peregrin and Meriadoc are available because of we Downers' tendency to eat Hobbits before they reach adulthood. Surprisingly, they taste like veal.

Here, have a glass of milk.

Peregrin Took · 07-10-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The names Peregrin and Meriadoc are available because of we Downers' tendency to eat Hobbits before they reach adulthood. Surprisingly, they taste like veal.

Here, have a glass of milk.

Well that's kind of rude and unnecessary I would say.

Morthoron · 07-10-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrin Took

Well that's kind of rude and unnecessary I would say.

Hmmm...both rude and unnecessary. And here I considered it more wryly facetious and unnecessary (but then very few posts are intrinsically essential, really; hence, the continued existence of a forum such as this).

I extend a belated welcome to the Barrow,
We love little Hobbits -- to the very marrow!

07-06-2008, 10:34 PM	#1
Peregrin Took Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Shire Posts: 38	About Those Hobbit Names Stumbling upon this interesting topic of Hobbit names. I'm confused as to why the Hobbits are given their names - Peregrin Took and Frodo Baggins, for example - and then on top of that they have "real Hobbit names" such as Pippin's "Razanur Tuk" and Frodo's "Maura Labingi". I don't understand this, as I thought Hobbits spoke Westron? Why do they have "real" Hobbit names? If that was their name why didn't people call them that? Am I missing something here? Thanks!

07-06-2008, 11:34 PM	#2
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	The English used in The Lord of the Rings is supposed to be a translation of Westron, so the names used are meant to be English equivalents of the alien-sounding "real" names. –Welcome to the Downs, Peregrin Took. I can't believe nobody has taken your screenname already! __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

07-07-2008, 12:10 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Old user-names become available again after the old accounts are deleted, inactive for a certain period. Nerwen explains the issue well. The names, though, are still an interesting topic. I recall discovering that Frodo and Sam weren't really Frodo and Sam, and feeling quite strange about it. I wasn't too happy, if you know what I mean. I'd invested all that time in the names only to find they were mere 'versions'. Now I'm older and understand that nearly every name we have is a version of some kind. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-09-2008, 08:37 AM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Not all the Hobbit-names have been translated of course, but Tolkien did note that he altered the masculine -a to -o, thus Bilba should be the real Westron name of Bilbo (along with Maura if the draft texts are raised). With Frodo Tolkien goes that extra mile again. 'Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. It's Old English form was Fróda. Its obvious connection is with the old word fród meaning etymologically 'wise by experience', but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North.' JRRT, 1955 letter to Richard Jeffery So, could a person who lived many years before Old English arose in the world have a name Froda? Possible. Would it have a meaning connected to 'experience wisdom'... ah possible* again, but Orthanc was already a bit too convenient, though fun. Tolkien already had to explain the name Gandalf, or the Dwarf-names, as translations, why not some of the Hobbits too. And this really took off in other ways, for if one used English to translate Westron then one could use other Primary World languages to represent internal languages actually spoken in Frodo's day. There was no one named Éowyn, Éomer, and no Rohir spoke Old English, and I think Tolkien enjoyed this conceit of translation, adding to the impression of reality (and explaining certain questions that might be raised by Readers), giving these Primary World tongues a part to play, and giving him some word-play at the same time. Note that in the drafts it is explained that there was no word maur- in contemporary Westron, but in the archaic language of the Rohirrim it meant 'wise, experienced'.

07-09-2008, 05:39 PM	#6
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I had quite forgotten about this - if not about the existence of translation, but at least of the actual names of the Hobbits. I had a sudden urge to think that if I ever have a daughter, I just might have to name her Maura...! To be a bit more serious and on-topic, I must say this issue is a bit confusing to me too. It does not feel nice to use the "wrong names of the heroes, but then again, would it be the same if they had those alien names? I don't think so. The Hobbits would indeed feel a little less familiar to me - and I'm Finnish, not English like the "primary audience". I trust Tolkien knew what he was doing. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

07-09-2008, 06:03 PM	#7
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Regarding our earlier side-note, our newest forum member is Aragorn. I suspect this evidence supports my case. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-09-2008, 07:36 PM	#11
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	It might be that Tolkien rejected Maura, since it appears in a draft and not in the final version published by Tolkien himself. There might be other reasons it was 'left out' however, but it was left out in any case.

07-09-2008, 07:37 PM	#12
Peregrin Took Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Shire Posts: 38	Maura sounds a lot like Moria! __________________ "I am not a fighter. But it would be politer in any case for the challenger to say who he is." Formerly MatthewM, joined Jun 2006.