The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Bêthberry]

Well, let me come to the party late but still with good wishes for a happy fete day, Legate.

Really intriguing link there, alatar. Thanks for posting the story about earlier interpretations.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Frankly, Tolkien loved words too much to plop in a rather simplistic fable to explain away such a rich and evocative branch of learning; or to put it another way, weren't languages, in fact, the wellspring of all his works?

Well, for a fable, the story has permeated a great deal of contemporary society; witness Babel fish and the movie of the same name, although the theme of Man's presumptuous pride and agression against God is less referenced these days, the confusion rather than the tower gaining prominence. Still, the Tower of Babel does incorporate the aspect of false belief which also hovers around the Sodom and Gamorrah tale. The tower was built upon the demand of Nimrod, kind of Babylon, and of course was part of the great city itself, a site of false, rival belief. This aspect is also found in the story of Sodom and Gamorrah: Lot had, after all, turned away from Abraham's land and journeyed east; he was a stranger in Sodom himself and perhaps tainted by its ways. And Numenor is a story about a falling away from true belief in a monotheistic god in favour of a false pretender.

But, yes, I do think that Tolkien rather relished the confusion of languages.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But there are some things which simply are not following the original intention of the story in any way. . . . one important thing is to take care and consider where the original story aims. . . . but the only thing I want to point out is that the original readers, the ones to whom the story was narrated as to the first listeners, did NOT ask, because they considered some things as clear and they also saw some things clearer than us because of their circumstances. It's always easier to understand a contemporary book than a book even from let's say two hundred years ago,

Well, I suppose I would say that original intention for the original readers--listeners really, as all the Pentateuch began as Oral Law--comes down to us through a long line of redactors, starting with the change over two generations between the Prophets and the Scholars, way back centuries before the Second Temple fell, 70 CE and that's a very intersting switch in the nature of those whose inheritance it was to preserve the Law. And, if that original intention was so clear, how come the theme of disobedience and willful refusal to follow God's way had to be hammered home so often, and how come there's such a rich tradition of interpretation and analysis? I suppose this question is very similar to alatar's line about "missed it by this much."

There's also an argument to be made that it is more difficult to understand a contemporary book than one written two hundred years ago, as more is involved in interpretation than just the very important aspect of literal definition. Look at how easily LotR has been given several contradictory readings and how for some it is a reactionary tome and for others a very modern, forward looking book. And look at Tolkien's own Foreword where he gives a very stark 'interpretation' of the story had it truly had parallels with World War II. To continue with the hoom, harooms, it's very easy to miss the forest for the trees.

Yet, for all this, I think we have different points of view about intention and original meaning, which will likely never meet.

Originally Posted by Legate

"all the whole earth", actually. These are the words by which the text starts. And that would definitely include women. Patriarchal society or not, all the nations are included, and that includes women. If nothing else, then it's clear enough that it's not like that men would be speaking different languages but women would still have the same language, so they must have been included in the event too. And all the logic speaks for it, as I said before.
(In any case, what would be the point of asking this I am not sure.)

Well, just for the sake of discussion as this is really getting tangential to the topic, I'm not sure where exactly the story of the Tower of Babel "starts" in the Hebrew, because the chapter and verse numbers are an invention of Christian exegesis. And I'm just a little bit intrigued by the fact that, of all the historical contexts and interpretations offerred of Babel on Wikipedia, only an apocryphal one, from the pseudepigrapha, The Third Apocalypse of Baruch, actually mentions women by word, with a rather stark story about the cruelty of the Tower's instigators: Wiki on Babel. But the treatment of queens is part of Tolkien's story of Numenor.

How did this get started?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, for a fable, the story has permeated a great deal of contemporary society; witness Babel fish and the movie of the same name, although the theme of Man's presumptuous pride and agression against God is less referenced these days, the confusion rather than the tower gaining prominence. Still, the Tower of Babel does incorporate the aspect of false belief which also hovers around the Sodom and Gamorrah tale. The tower was built upon the demand of Nimrod, kind of Babylon, and of course was part of the great city itself, a site of false, rival belief.

Yes, and we know that good ol' Nimrod has permeated modern society as well, being the title of a Green Day album, and a slang term for a dolt as well (it also could mean 'hunter', but I've not seen any piece of literature published within the last 100 years that uses the name thus). Nevertheless, the major premise of the fable is the divergence of languages (brought on by presumptive pride); therefore, I still maintain it is not germane to the Fall of Numenor, as the moral of the story does not fit in any case.

But it would've been funny if Elendil, having landed on the shore of Eriador after the storm-tossed trip, claiming all the lands in the name of the Shire and uttering his name as Caradoc Brandybuck, with his sons Palanquin and Hennequin.

[Macalaure]

Can I post something on topic?


I don't think the sinking of Numenor was supposed to be a punishment. This seems to me to be an unexpectedly calculated action by Iluvatar. Who should it be a lesson to? Sauron? It was not very effective, then. The surviving Numenoreans and the other people of Middle-earth? I can't think so. What would the lesson be? A lesson of fear, of course. But Eru doesn't at one (other) time give me the impression of being a father who desired to be feared by his children. The other option seems to be that he destroyed Numenor out of wrath. But this seems equally unlikely, because, as has been mentioned, Eru doesn't give a wrathful impression anywhere else either.

Originally Posted by Legate

And at least to me it always seemed that without Manwë's asking for it, Eru wouldn't have done anything.

It seemed that way to me, too. Actually, I wonder whether Manwe really expected Eru to do something along those lines or whether he was shocked at the measure, too.

What I don't understand is, why did Eru wait to take action until Manwe asked him to, and then decided he would need to deal out punishment / decided he wanted to be wrathful. Wouldn't he just have addressed Manwe's plea, which was only to protect Valinor? Where did this idea come from? Or did Eru make up his mind long before, but didn't want to realize his plan as long as it would undermine Manwe's authority? I'm not sure whether any of this makes sense. Let's have a look at the quote.

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Numenoreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
But the land of Aman and Eressea of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. And Andor, the Land of Gift, Numenor of the Kings, Elenna of the Star of Earendil, was utterly destroyed. For it was nigh to the east of the great rift, and its foundations were overturned, and it fell and went down into darkness, and is no more. And there is not now upon Earth any place abiding where the memory of a time without evil is preserved. For Iluvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressea were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.
In an hour unlocked for by Men this doom befell, on the nine and thirtieth day since the passing of the fleets. Then suddenly fire burst from the Meneltarma, and there came a mighty wind and a tumult of the earth, and the sky reeled, and the hills slid, and Nъmenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and its balls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its lore: they vanished for ever.

~Akallabeth

(emphasis mine, of course)

Does anybody but me read this thinking that maybe Eru didn't actually want to destroy Numenor in the first place and that it was just an "accident" that happened when Eru wanted to protect Valinor? In the first paragraph, Ar-Pharazon's fleet is destroyed and his army captured. This is the only thing that's immediately necessary to satisfy Manwe's plea and this is what Tolkien starts with. In the second he describes Eru going further and removing Valinor, making it safe not just for the moment but for the future. Numenor is mentioned, but no more. Then, only in the third paragraph, Tolkien mentions the drowning of Numenor. (Of course, it could also be that it was just the last of the things to happen, chronologically.)

In the second paragraph, Tolkien gives a reason for the sinking of Numenor, being that "it was nigh to the east of the great rift". In other words, Numenor just happened to be in the way. This does not sound like its destruction was a prime intention of Eru. Now, one could ask, if he didn't want to destroy Numenor, couldn't he, being Eru, have devised a way to destroy Ar-Pharazon's fleet and remove Valinor without it? This is difficult to answer. Maybe Arda's geography really didn't allow it without a change to its laws of physics, who knows? But the feeling I get is that maybe Eru has simply ceased to care for Numenor. After all, the Numenoreans used to be the only people who didn't "just" worship the Valar primarily, but himself. I would say that Eru didn't really wanted to destroy Numenor - otherwise the blow would have been more direct, and the text passage wouldn't carry the feeling of collateral damage - but that Eru has grown indifferent enough towards it that it didn't matter to him very much anymore and if it had to be sacrificed to protect Valinor, then so be it.

(I have to add that I haven't checked any passages from HoMe to check for different descriptions, so I could be rather wrong.)

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't think the sinking of Numenor was supposed to be a punishment.

I disagree. The Numenorians were not allowed to come to Aman. They did come however with the intention to make war upon it and were severly punished.

Now, one could ask, if he didn't want to destroy Numenor, couldn't he, being Eru, have devised a way to destroy Ar-Pharazon's fleet and remove Valinor without it? This is difficult to answer.

I don't think it is difficult to answer. I believe Tolkien made it quite clear that Eru is limitless or omnipotent in relation to his creation, Eä, and that he (is it he btw?) could have chosen to spare all those who were innocent with a thought only, had he wished to do so. The destruction of Numenor was no accident.

Judging by the description in the Silmarillion Eru sees upon his creation much like a work of art and he wants it to be perfect and complete. To achieve this end, ugliness, suffering and evil deeds are just as important as beauty, goodness and pleasure, because without the former, the latter would of lesser value.

Eru doesn't seem bothered at all by the suffering of individual people (or elves) in Arda and the millions of innocent drowned in Numenor is of little or no importance to him I believe. Eru sees the big picture. Perhaps good people get their reward in the after-life (the gift of men) but of this not a word is spoken in the books. What becomes of men when they die is a complete mystery.

As for why Eru chose to destroy Numenor and remove Aman from the circles of the earth it is hard to say. Personally I feel that Tolkien thought not so much about Eru's inner motives and the theological implications when he wrote the story but rather about how good a story, or myth, it was, tying in with the Atlantis myth as it does. He probably pondered the theology as well, but imo this was more likely an afterthought and not the prime motivation behind the story.

If I am to make a guess, I'd say Eru removed Aman for sentimental reasons. It was so pretty and he couldn't stand to lose it, and his buddies the Ainur.. Since men have the freedom to make their own destiny, he might have hoped that they would play nice and leave Aman alone or at least not ruin it. But as it was, men would inevetably ruin Aman had it been left reachable on earth. Perhaps men will eventually make a new paradise of Arda (I forgot what they called it in HoME X) but sooner (Ar-Pharazon) or later (modern air pollution and the plundering of resources) Aman would have been ruined, there's no doubt about that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

and that he (is it he btw?)

You should know that I smirked a little when reading this, because the note seemed just false to me. Eru, as far as I know, is addressed as "he" in the book, and so I would say he is "he", simply because there's no argument which would make us think we should call him "she" or "it", which is both as nonsens-ish, mind you. Why this seemed silly question to me is because Tolkien's books are a literary work we are given, and we have characters in them. You don't ask whether Frodo is "she", why should you ask the same about Eru. I hope it's understandable what I mean (the last sentence makes it pretty clear I think).

Judging by the description in the Silmarillion Eru sees upon his creation much like a work of art and he wants it to be perfect and complete.

Eee... really? I am not sure I ever had this impression. Eru likes to listen to the Music and see (or, hear) the beauty which comes out of it, but at least his behavior always made me think that there's something else going on in his head behind the beauty. Remember:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.

And also, in particular, if he, as you say, wanted the creation to be perfect and complete, why not make it himself and instead call some Ainur, who only made a mess.

Perhaps good people get their reward in the after-life (the gift of men) but of this not a word is spoken in the books. What becomes of men when they die is a complete mystery.

This is actually a good point, because it seems to me this far we managed to fall into the trap of Morgoth together with the Middle-Earthians and take death as something negative. While it's actually a Gift, for the Men. So we shouldn't maybe worry about the death of the "innocent" (?) inhabitants of Númenor too much.

As for why Eru chose to destroy Numenor and remove Aman from the circles of the earth it is hard to say. Personally I feel that Tolkien thought not so much about Eru's inner motives and the theological implications when he wrote the story but rather about how good a story, or myth, it was, tying in with the Atlantis myth as it does. He probably pondered the theology as well, but imo this was more likely an afterthought and not the prime motivation behind the story.

That's also a good point.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Legate

In any case, on the other hand, even the "I will rip the world apart and look, as collateral damage it destroyed Númenor" explanation does not seem satisfactory, as Eru would surely know so we cannot label it as "accident" and the story even makes one think that it was not a mere "accident", right? Now I am a little exaggerating of course, but in any case we cannot avoid the question "so why did Eru do this?" and cannot just say "it just happened to be that way". Or so I would think.

Well, calling it an "accident" was a little bit of an exaggeration itself, that's why I put the quote marks around it. My idea is not Eru saying "Oops, I guess that was a little too much to the right.", but that his intent was only to destroy Ar-Pharazôn's fleet and army and to remove Valinor into eternal safety. He probably could have done this without destroying Númenor, but didn't. He also could have let the great rift go straight through Númenor and make the character of punishment uncontestable, but didn't either. This leads me to speculate that Eru has become indifferent to it. I can't find a quote stating that Eru wanted to coldly punish the Númenóreans or destroyed it in wrath.

Originally Posted by skip

As for why Eru chose to destroy Numenor and remove Aman from the circles of the earth it is hard to say. Personally I feel that Tolkien thought not so much about Eru's inner motives and the theological implications when he wrote the story but rather about how good a story, or myth, it was, tying in with the Atlantis myth as it does. He probably pondered the theology as well, but imo this was more likely an afterthought and not the prime motivation behind the story.

With this I completely agree. And that is why it makes such a good topic for discussion. However, if you think this, then how do you know that

Originally Posted by skip

The Numenorians were not allowed to come to Aman. They did come however with the intention to make war upon it and were severly punished.

While it certainly was a punishment to the Númenóreans, how can you tell that it was Eru's intention to punish them? This is more than just splitting hairs: Only if it was Eru's intention to punish them, it makes sense to ask who the lesson was directed at.

In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Originally Posted by skip

I don't think it is difficult to answer. I believe Tolkien made it quite clear that Eru is limitless or omnipotent in relation to his creation, Eä, and that he (is it he btw?) could have chosen to spare all those who were innocent with a thought only, had he wished to do so. The destruction of Numenor was no accident.

Well, whether he could have spared the innocents with a thought only is debatable. Seeing how long it took the Valar, even without the interruptions of Melkor, to build Arda, it might have been quite toilsome. That's why I get the impression that Eru didn't care about them enough to choose the scalpel over the broadsword.

Originally Posted by Legate

This is actually a good point, because it seems to me this far we managed to fall into the trap of Morgoth together with the Middle-Earthians and take death as something negative. While it's actually a Gift, for the Men. So we shouldn't maybe worry about the death of the "innocent" (?) inhabitants of Númenor too much.

This is certainly true, however, removing a person from life forcefully is considered to be evil. As I said in my last post, if indeed this was supposed to be a lesson, it was one of ambiguous content.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Well, calling it an "accident" was a little bit of an exaggeration itself, that's why I put the quote marks around it. My idea is not Eru saying "Oops, I guess that was a little too much to the right."

Of course, I was aware of it. That's why I said it's a little exaggeration also when I was writing my post.

In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Actually, here we are back at what I said earlier about Manwë's prayer to Eru. Eru did not interfere when the Trees were destroyed, and in lots of other events of all-world importance. Curiously, the sending of Istari, as noted in UT, is said to be on account of Manwë, and Christopher notes that on the edge the Prof marked: "And perhaps he asked Eru for counsel?" In any case, what I want to point out here is that you actually don't usually see Eru acting in any direct, apparent way in the stories (not talking about HoME here, I don't know them, but even then, the tales in them are not among the "canonical" stuff). He rather makes the impression of somebody sitting "outside" and watching it all. But when he is specifically asked, he acts. But this happens really just a few times.
So, stemming from this, the destruction of Númenor, to me, doesn't look like the well-thought intervence of the omnipotent and omniscient creator, but rather the intervence of the omnipotent and omniscient creator who was asked by desperate King of Arda and heard his call. Something like "okay, you asked for it, so I will do it". And if I caricate it a little bit, he might have been saying: "All right, dear Manwë, I understand you. Yes, the course of the events is horrible, Men are going to violate Aman. I will remove the Undying Lands. *cough*itwilldestroynúmenorasitisontheedgeoftherif t*cough*" This is actually how I would imagine it.

[alatar]

Ah, so we finally get the answer. The lesson was pointed at Manwe! I'm not sure what the lesson is, whether that he should have called on Eru earlier to solve some issues, or that he, being King of Arda, should NOT have ever needed to call on Eru.

Regardless, if we are polling, I'm going with Manwe.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, let me come to the party late but still with good wishes for a happy fete day, Legate.

Thank you. And to you too, alatar.

Well, I suppose I would say that original intention for the original readers--listeners really, as all the Pentateuch began as Oral Law--comes down to us through a long line of redactors, starting with the change over two generations between the Prophets and the Scholars, way back centuries before the Second Temple fell, 70 CE and that's a very intersting switch in the nature of those whose inheritance it was to preserve the Law. And, if that original intention was so clear, how come the theme of disobedience and willful refusal to follow God's way had to be hammered home so often, and how come there's such a rich tradition of interpretation and analysis? I suppose this question is very similar to alatar's line about "missed it by this much."

There's also an argument to be made that it is more difficult to understand a contemporary book than one written two hundred years ago, as more is involved in interpretation than just the very important aspect of literal definition. Look at how easily LotR has been given several contradictory readings and how for some it is a reactionary tome and for others a very modern, forward looking book. And look at Tolkien's own Foreword where he gives a very stark 'interpretation' of the story had it truly had parallels with World War II. To continue with the hoom, harooms, it's very easy to miss the forest for the trees.

That's true. But the way I put it in the post before I think the books written in different circumstances are more difficult to read - when you don't know much about the time when they were written. Because of the reasons I stated. It's true that when you know about the circumstances, it may be easy for you to abstract some "time-specific" things, like for example now I am reading a book about Mahatma Gandhi written by a Czech author during the era of totality here, and I know which things to relativise or to take with reservations (although I am aware that even this may be dangerous, as I possibly can't know all). But still I think the contemporary books are easier to understand just because of that. And what you say for example about Tolkien, and I believe it concerns even the biblical story by the time it was narrated in its first times, and that's also about the "clear intention" and the things you speak about in the first paragraph, it was prone just to the "wilful interpretation", as much as everything is.
Nevertheless, I never said the story has just one correct interpretation or something like that. That would be the biggest nonsense. But I simply say that there are certain criteria - and the disobedience, wilful refusals and such things you mention prove it - that there are some borders where the interpretation simply becomes wilful and untrue to the central message of it (also in the case you take the Bible as canon, be it just OT or both or in any other cases, you can actually apply this on any set of books, even on Tolkien - then you have to count with the single stories' interpretations being coherent with the message of the book as a whole). Now I must say I also mix some "criticism" into it, simply saying that there are things which I believe cannot in any way be based upon the concerned text. Anyway, actually I believe there may be situations when one interpretation may be appropriate while in a different situation it would not be. Look even into the biblical canon itself! There are some really contradictory things inside it. But that's what it is - and that's actually what I believe makes it still "live" and gives it some possibility of "dialogue". Aside from, whenever I am already speaking from personal opinion, the Holy Spirit, which makes it possible to convey some message to you. But that's purely Christian view now.

Yet, for all this, I think we have different points of view about intention and original meaning, which will likely never meet.

Who told you that? At least I was not able to "decipher" what is your point of view about intention and original meaning, not in the way that the result would tell me it's totally different from mine and that they can never meet.

Well, just for the sake of discussion as this is really getting tangential to the topic, I'm not sure where exactly the story of the Tower of Babel "starts" in the Hebrew, because the chapter and verse numbers are an invention of Christian exegesis.

Of course. But just for the sake of discussion, the point is that the story speaks, at least in this sentence, which is seemingly important (well, after all, it apparently caught the eye of those who divided the chapters), speaks about "all the earth". And it's definite that the point of the story concerns all people, be they male or female.
As for where it starts, one might take a look at it, but I would personally think, who knows, because it's put into the one whole by the redaction(s?) and one would have to try to find out by some signs, or actually, conclude where it theoretically might have started. Fortunately that's not our task at the moment anyway. At least not mine.

And I'm just a little bit intrigued by the fact that, of all the historical contexts and interpretations offerred of Babel on Wikipedia, only an apocryphal one, from the pseudepigrapha, The Third Apocalypse of Baruch, actually mentions women by word, with a rather stark story about the cruelty of the Tower's instigators: Wiki on Babel.

That's, I would say, an usual way it goes for the apocrypha. With the later age when they were written, one of the things they do is that they "fill in" these things which a reader would usually think about when using some logical conclusion, finding out that it seems the tale misses something. Like for example that women are not mentioned there.


On topic for a change: Mac, I'd agree with some of the things you say, mainly I really am not sure, as you say, whether to see Eru's action as aimed against Númenor primarily. If anything, I would say it was like "All right Manwë, if you ask, I will take Valinor out, and just by the way it will destroy Númenor, how lucky it happens to be so close to the great rift, two flies by one hit, at least." But that's going too far in one direction and I think that won't still be the proper answer for the question.
In any case, on the other hand, even the "I will rip the world apart and look, as collateral damage it destroyed Númenor" explanation does not seem satisfactory, as Eru would surely know so we cannot label it as "accident" and the story even makes one think that it was not a mere "accident", right? Now I am a little exaggerating of course, but in any case we cannot avoid the question "so why did Eru do this?" and cannot just say "it just happened to be that way". Or so I would think.