Mordor inspired by Nazi Germany?

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Good luck, buddy.

I say rather that fate will bring intelligence to this thread. Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Perhaps this thread is not for you then, Formendacil. This thread seeks intelligent posters of the highest order.

Originally Posted by Mansun

I say rather that fate will bring intelligence to this thread. Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

Intelligence is all relative; in this case, relative to the replies and not to the original posit, which is faulty and incongruous with facts presented to the contrary.

I suggest you refrain from character judgements.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Intelligence is all relative; in this case, relative to the replies and not to the original posit, which is faulty and incongruous with facts presented to the contrary.

I suggest you refrain from character judgements.

These comments are best suited for private messages, if at all. Please continue with the thread topic.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm with Formendacil here. It's very easy to accept that Tolkien was not writing about our world. You can see anything in The Lord of the Rings if you want to. It's just like Nietzsche and Adam Smith being 'claimed' by diametrically opposed thinkers. Tolkien's writing relates to stories and traditions far older than a 20th century dictator.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I'm with Formendacil here. It's very easy to accept that Tolkien was not writing about our world. You can see anything in The Lord of the Rings if you want to. It's just like Nietzsche and Adam Smith being 'claimed' by diametrically opposed thinkers. Tolkien's writing relates to stories and traditions far older than a 20th century dictator.

I think that we're talking about the Rorschach inkblot test; though the truly creative can see all kinds of Balrog wings in the blots. On the other hand, it's hard to dismiss the influence of the environment on the mind.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

These comments are best suited for private messages, if at all. Please continue with the thread topic.

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The first character judgement was posted by you, publicly (post #9, which I would delete if I were not referencing it here); therefore I now remind you publicly to follow your own advice and refrain from personal comments.

The same applies to all other members posting here. The premise of the discussion may be flawed, but there is no reason to insult the other participants. Argue your points objectively, please, or refrain from posting if you cannot do so. Any further personal remarks will be deleted and continued insults will result in the closing of the thread.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The first character judgement was posted by you, publicly (post #9, which I would delete if I were not referencing it here); therefore I now remind you publicly to follow your own advice and refrain from personal comments.

The same applies to all other members posting here. The premise of the discussion may be flawed, but there is no reason to insult the other participants. Argue your points objectively, please, or refrain from posting if you cannot do so. Any further personal remarks will be deleted and continued insults will result in the closing of the thread.

Tolkein's world was indeed beautiful and elegant . . .

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Karma existed in Middle Earth, so why not here also?

I had originally intended to leave this thread alone--though I have no grudge, I really don't have anything constructive to say that will in any way further an intelligent conversation about Tolkien and World War II--but if perhaps that particular topic is exhausted, I'd like to enquire about the above quote.

Personally, I'm inclined to give karma as much of a chance on the shooting range as I would allegory, but I'm also inclined to think, Mansun, that you wouldn't post that if you didn't have something in mind.

So I must ask... is there karma in Middle-earth? Obviously, not under that name... but still...

?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So I must ask... is there karma in Middle-earth? Obviously, not under that name... but still...

?

Good things happen to ''good'' people through good actions and vice versa etc. I would think Karma has a place in Middle Earth on that front, though in the real world it does not materialise that often.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Good things happen to ''good'' people through good actions and vice versa etc. I would think Karma has a place in Middle Earth on that front, though in the real world it does not materialise that often.

Middle Earth is a different place, and you never know when the breath of Manwe or the dew of Ulmo will bring some karma your way. In real life, I would say that the idea is unproven, as we tend to see and remember some events more than others, which is why, on average, our pasts look just peachy as we selectively forget the nights when Tolkien in the net wasn't even a dream.

[Rumil]

Hello all,

nice to see Burra striding the Downs as of old

Formendacil, I was thinking about Middle Earth Karma, and who should come up with a possibly relevant quote but good old Theoden

oft evil will shall evil mar

Karm-ish if not strictly Karmic!

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I'm still wondering about the WWII thing. Must say I'm with Burra on the allegoricalness. However, did the state of the War affect Tolkien's mood, and the 'vibe' of the book, while he was in the process of writing? Considering that he wrote nothing during the darkest days of 1940-41, can anyone further entertain the possibility?

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would the LOTR been the same if WWII never happened? Inspiration may have subconciously occurred within the grim context of war, and war itself was central to much of the events in the LOTR.

I find it hard to believe there wasn't some effect on his writing from the war, but at the same time whatever effect it might have had probably wasn't as big as one could expect.
As Morthoron posted:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in my mind, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.

Though WWII was a world changing event of the 1900's and its impact is still felt heavily today, WWII tends to get broken down into good vs. evil, light winning against darkness, (the evil Axis vs the vitreous Allies), and the ideas of good vs. evil are ones that go back to the first stories told word of mouth from parent to child. Tolkien's work can be compared to other world events that had just as profound effects. That doesn't mean that's where Tolkien found influence for his world. As I said before the joy of his work is the ability to allow the reader to find a connection to their own life, to other events in the world. Though it doesn't mean that's where Tolkien was coming from it doesn't make the reader wrong. Good literature is open to interpretation.

[Aaron]

I don't think that Mordor was necessarily inspired by the Nazi state. I don't really buy into the notion that Tolkien's work was inspired by Nazi Germany.
In any case, Mordor was driven by the will of Sauron alone. Whereas the Nazi's had a whole system of thought, they weren't brainless savages like the Orcs. No, the scary thing is that many Nazi's were well educated and yet still lowered themselves to such barbarism.

[burrahobbit]

It isn't that Mordor was "not necessarily" inspired by Germany, it's that it was "necessarily not" inspired by it. Explicitly, empiracally so.

[bilbo_baggins]

burrahobbit is right.

And, as per the trend of Bethberry's inquest into details in the comparison of Mordor with Nazi Germany, I have one thought: was Sauron a patriot?

I might push more than a few buttons here, but Hitler was, perhaps only at the beginning, a patriot. Perhaps insanity and power drove it from his mind in the later years (1935-45), but following the collapse of Germany after WWI, Hitler was deeply moved by the plight of his fellow Germans, and it was his patriotism, not necessarily insanity, that began his struggle to bring Germany back into the "Successful Nations" list. I concede and agree that most of his actions were misguided, cruel, foolish, insane, diabolical, etc., but his beginning motives were rather noble.

Did Sauron have such motives? I think not...