Valar / Greek and Roman gods

[Valesse]

To put my two cents in concerning strictly the Valar/Greek 'cross over', I'd like to that perhaps the Tolkien demi-Pantheon converts easier to the many 'lesser' gods/goddesses, some of which weren't anthropomorphic so much as personifications or some of the earilier generations. Nienna, seems to fit the 'personification' bill much nicer than Yavanna, for instance, who would make a wonderful good-natured havest goddess or titaness... like Rheia. Or the Greek Goddess Hebe (Daughter of Zeus and Hera) who matches fairly well with Vana.

I agree that the Valar are much more even natured compared to the Greek dubious dozen, but if you prescribe to nurture more than nature you've probably considered the fact that being eaten by dear, old daddy Cronus might make you a bit pessimistic too. Or to have the origin Aphrodite has? Yikes. I'd probably feel the urge to copy Nienna some. Now, I'm not aware of Tolkien's over-all philosophy, whether he bought into Locke or Hobbs or whatever, but I know the Greeks were realists. They knew Why Bad Things Happen To Good People (to borrow a phrase) and thats because they, simply, were people. Beliefs are created to explain the reason why things happen they way they do. The harsher religions tend to be older.

On that note... Rumil: I'd suggest looking into the Enuma Elesh and Hurrian-Hittite mythologies. They're from the same theological family as those of the Greeks and Romans with a few subtle differences (I'll just say that the Cronus character was being -nice- in the Greek mythology.)

But your interest in the Hindi religion did bring me to find Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, which counts the number of Gods as first 303, then 33; 6; 3; 2 and finally 1. I know that this refers to Hinduism as being monotheistic, though appearing polytheistic on the outset, but it brings back up Mothoron's comment about the Valar not really being Gods themselves, so much. They are part of Eru, the One, and have specific roles according to his will.

Linked to this is Nuer theology, which I think I see the closest connection. All of the Gods are actually one God with many forms (Kwoth). They're of the Above, which are revered far more (Manwe and Varda, etc.) and the Below (Yavanna and Aule, etc.). Unlike the Valar, however they are also not overly friendly toward human beings. They are jealous and greedy. (the Nuer protect their babies from the Gods/God by calling them ugly and spitting on them until they reach the second age-grade. It's really a fascinating culture.)

From where I sit I see a kind of theological gradient:
Greco/Roman > Nuer > Hindi* > Valar

* My knowledge of Hinduism is somewhat more than just lacking. I'd love it if someone would correct my points.

This is an excellent topic, Might

[wispeight]

I find that my scope of ignorance expands in direct proportion to my increase in knowledge. Buddhism and that which is among the Pali and Sanskrit have probably been best at not corrupting through interpolations and omissions. Superstitio is a word originally meaning 'that which is added upon or to a thing'.

I would not say anything about any religion which might appear negative, as I believe that they all strive toward universal principles. I strongly suspect that there is at times, one Mother Religion, where a global accord exists on this point. Plato and the latter - and perhaps better - Neo-Platonists were very comprehensive as well. I simply believe that the doors close when great leaders of men express sefish aims. We are only beginning to recover from these closed doors. I think the doors began closing around the time of King Croesus and Agememnon. They definitely closed around 2nd century A.D. and the Dark Ages occurred shortly thereafter in Europe.

These fourteen Valars might represent seven forces and seven elements gradually becoming more ethereal as they ascend. Seperation is not so much a thing to focus on as is interpermeation. Our attractions in life and our inner state might represent an idea of what we might have to experience after or in between death and rebirth. But only to slough them off, or not requiring that depending on the individual. From the very tiny bit that I have learned in the past five years, I'm learning that maintaining an even temperment for the most part indicates I might be on the right path. I'm not saying extremes never have any role to play, I only think that it better not be self-centered selfish motivations.

I came to this site because I love the "Lord of the Rings" movies, and watch them everytime they come on tv. I haven't yet seen anyone mention their interpretation of 'Middle Earth' other than the hollow space in this planet. Please, I don't want to hear about the earth being hollow. Perhaps I should start a thread concerning that very question, but then I'd have to oversee it, and don't know if my other activities would allow it. I realize I'm likely being ignorant as it probably already popped-up here and I should have looked.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by wispeight

I haven't yet seen anyone mention their interpretation of 'Middle Earth' other than the hollow space in this planet. Please, I don't want to hear about the earth being hollow. Perhaps I should start a thread concerning that very question, but then I'd have to oversee it, and don't know if my other activities would allow it. I realize I'm likely being ignorant as it probably already popped-up here and I should have looked.

?????????????

[Nerwen]

Okay... I've had another look at your question. Ummm... are you asking what the term "Middle-earth" refers to?

[wispeight]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay... I've had another look at your question. Ummm... are you asking what the term "Middle-earth" refers to?

Not anymore. I had a little interest in what was thought regarding middle earth, I caught a glimmer out of the corner of my eye, I turned to look but it was gone... I have become comfortably done.

[Nerwen]

Well... anytime you do want to know something, just ask.

[wispeight]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well... anytime you do want to know something, just ask.

~~~

The light of kindness from yourself and skip was a mistake, because of the fact that I am going to continue with more of my thoughts

I think that the seemingly unshakeable belief of the gods that Baldr was the epitome of perfection, must have in reality been an accord based on coercion. Loki would not have been able to trick a higher god into killing Baldr if this accord among all the gods was sincere. Even Loki realized that perfection is a state requiring no further experiencing and evolution toward continued upward progress.

Emanation of force and substance which in turn begins its own evolution is done even by humanity, and I'm not only referring to child-birth. But I will refrain from expanding upon this.

If I was to use the Nordic term 'ALL FATHER' and the word perfection, then I would feel the appropriateness of the word.

One way of speaking of the 14 Valars, if I was going to place them on seven grades and the feminine or substance on one side, with the masculine or force on the other, then I would say that these are states or conditions relatively close to each one of us, but then I would have to state the existence of seven more grades above those seven. These latter might be known as Tattwas with the ones closest to us being Lokas.

I'm not trying to be pedantic or impress. When I write things down, I remember them better, so if I do it on a public domain, my logic is that I'm impressing upon myself all the better, that which I'm trying to comprehend.

riddles remind me of spirals. Direct transmission of a concept from one point to another, with departure and arrival seeming to be simultaneous, interferes with the will of an individual.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by wispeight

Not anymore. I had a little interest in what was thought regarding middle earth, I caught a glimmer out of the corner of my eye, I turned to look but it was gone... I have become comfortably done.

You speak in riddles my friend.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A brief note to that Hinduism thing. It's so that Hinduism represents a rather diverse collection of all sorts of beliefs in local gods, various traditions from various ages, various views of the world-order (from the brahmanism through upanishadas etc.). I am pretty sure you would find some gods in there which you could compare to some of the Valar pretty well. But it's not like that "in Hinduism, there is X gods", and then some specific order or structure between them. Hinduism, in fact, represents simply anything that is religious and comes from India at the same time, if I say it in somewhat simple way. The only thing is, that there is the attempt to ultimately reach the "main" gods, or maybe better to say "the gods above gods", if I am to hold this terminology (basically three, or two, or depends, it varies among certain specific traditions). But anyway, it's all somewhat complicated and I don't want to go deep to it here because that would be probably for long, but overall I believe it's quite alien from the concept of Valar and such. Also because again, the "nature" of the gods is a lot different from the one of the Valar, or even the Greek gods. In my opinon, when we are comparing, the Greek, or European pantheons in general are far more fitting, simply because they are European and M-E is rather European than anything else.