It's not just about having the power...

[alatar]

Interesting thoughts, LoAL. I think that your thoughts about 'power' are what separate the good from the bad in Middle Earth. To use power without much forethought can be folly; the use of power can create the equal but opposite reaction.

Gandalf could have forced anyone, save a few, to bend to his will. In doing so he would have become like those he wished to oppose.

My one brother is much stronger and faster than me. He was a track star, holding some local records in both pole vaulting and sprinting. My brother can lift me completely above his head. In a fight, which, as brothers we did sometimes as kids, he could easily best me unless I played to my strengths, which were to taunt him until he lost control, and then hit him when he was ill-prepared - usually by taking out one of his legs. When he would hit the ground, I would wrap his one arm with both legs and the other with both arms and restrain him until he either came to his senses or he got loose and beat the tar out of me.

There were easier ways to take him down, but...he was my brother, and except for a few seconds when I would be enraged, even when we were fighting, I never would want to physically hurt him. A jab to the neck, a kick to the lower region and he'd be down...but why? Why would I do something so reckless/dangerous just to show him up? If/when he recovered, he too would escalate, and then I would have to hurt him seriously to keep him from hurting me more. Where would it end?

Being the calmer of the two of us, I tried to keep it from getting out of hand. I love my brother, even when he's being a pain in the neck.

I think that Gandalf felt this way. He could have fought Saruman, but he didn't want to start a fight which, even if he won, would only have resulted in the destruction of his foe, and I don't think that he wanted that. Even at the end he wished that Saruman found healing, and it may be that he felt the same about Sauron.

Look at the clear difference between Gandalf and the Witch-King. The later stomps over both friend and foe alike, whereas the former felt pity even for Sauron's slaves.

[Morthoron]

I am 6' 2'' and 225 pounds. My younger brother is 6'6'' 300 pounds. I know he can beat me up if he likes. He knows he can beat me up if he likes. However, we both know he would ultimately have to kill me, because if left alive, I would come back at him with a baseball bat. We have never had a fist fight ever. *shrugs*

I think Saruman did indeed overpower Gandalf at Orthanc (although perhaps not as dramatically as the "Star Wars with Staffs" sequence in the movie). The reason I believe this is that when Gandalf defeated the Balrog and died, he was ressurrected into 'white' status, and his sacrifice was a purification in order to reach that next 'power' level. It would make little sense for Tolkien to write that part of the tale if there was no significance in Gandalf's death and ressurrection.

And really, if you think about it, the only real significant battle of power after Gandalf was ressurrected and became the White was when he broke Saruman's staff; other than that, there is little of note battle-wise that Tolkien remarks on regarding Gandalf (he almost fought the WitchKing of Angmar, almost fought the Chicken of Bristol and almost fought the Dragon of Angnor).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Saruman did indeed overpower Gandalf at Orthanc (although perhaps not as dramatically as the "Star Wars with Staffs" sequence in the movie). The reason I believe this is that when Gandalf defeated the Balrog and died, he was ressurrected into 'white' status, and his sacrifice was a purification in order to reach that next 'power' level. It would make little sense for Tolkien to write that part of the tale if there was no significance in Gandalf's death and ressurrection.

Well and that's exactly what I think is not right. Not contesting what you said about Gandalf becoming more powerful after his return as the White Rider: it is hinted, at many places, that he has a new "quality" now, however I think we should bear in mind that once again, this "new quality" was not only about more power. He had somewhat different attitude, he learned about something. I would say, the most significant change was in a "spiritual" way. Also, he had far more self-confidence after that, and it seems likely that he consulted (or "was consulted by") the Valar (or Eru?) meanwhile.

However, like I said, I think there was no real confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman. When the negotiations failed, Gandalf stopped, he did not attack - but at the same he did not capitulate, did not submit, did not do what Saruman wanted from him. I believe Gandalf didn't try to use power to contest Saruman there. In PJ's movie, the one who starts the "duel" is Saruman, because he becomes angry. But in the books, there was no reason for him to become angry to attack Gandalf - it says he was "cold and perilous". He was "cold", he was aware of his superiority at the moment, so he just sent the guards to escort Gandalf to the top. Saruman wouldn't have started anything. So, the only one who could have tried to use his power to get away would be Gandalf then. Gandalf the aggressor? And that's what I believe he won't do. Exactly as alatar says - I may just quote here:

Originally Posted by alatar

I think that Gandalf felt this way. He could have fought Saruman, but he didn't want to start a fight which, even if he won, would only have resulted in the destruction of his foe, and I don't think that he wanted that. Even at the end he wished that Saruman found healing, and it may be that he felt the same about Sauron.

Also, what supports the theory that nothing happened besides the dialogue, book-wise, is what we can read. The only description after the end of dialogue, when Saruman laughed, is:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars.

I believe, if it were as Morthoron says, that there would have been at least one more sentence, at least brief, like "I made a vein attempt to escape, but alas, Saruman proved mightier still." But there's nothing like that.

[Morthoron]

I understand what you're saying, Legate; however, for Gandalf to meekly surrender to Saruman makes little sense to me. Frodo was in danger, and the Ring was in peril, for the Nazgul were abroad in the Shire. It was not a time to be genteel and polite (particularly since a little bit later he was blowing up Weathertop, shooting lightning at the Nazgul).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I understand what you're saying, Legate; however, for Gandalf to meekly surrender to Saruman makes little sense to me. Frodo was in danger, and the Ring was in peril, for the Nazgul were abroad in the Shire. It was not a time to be genteel and polite (particularly since a little bit later he was blowing up Weathertop, shooting lightning at the Nazgul).

Well yes. To start from the end: Nazgul and such are in a bit of special position in LotR, because they have no own will and are merely "evil", so you don't really approach the approach towards them the same... although I could speak even to this, but that's for different topic and there are threads about it. Just to point out, on the other hand, Gandalf pities "even [Sauron's] slaves".

Anyway, the main point. It's not a question of being polite or whatever. I agree with you that sure the situation was grave. But Gandalf knew, at the very moment when Saruman made his proposal, that there's no way he is letting him go willingly. He had the option to attack Saruman. And he didn't, I say. Also there's the evidence of the books as I quoted, which I think to be quite convincing.

Also, note, Gandalf didn't "surrender". He still opposed Saruman. He only didn't use power to oppose him.

The only disadvantage of Gandalf was that he couldn't send any message to Frodo. But the battle for Middle-Earth did not rely solely on Gandalf. He was still but one person among many, if you forget the "heroic colorite". He was aware of that. I think he did not consider his own freedom important to the point that he would dare to start with Saruman. We are not in a computer RPG or a cliché-ish action movie, where the "hero" shoots through hordes of bad guys to get out of the prison. And besides that, as Gandalf himself says on the Council, he still had the hope the Ring will get into safety even without his help, because he left the letter for Frodo (although it showed bad because of Butterbur's sclerosis, but he didn't know at the time).

But okay, if I put it into the extreme: The Ring was in danger. Frodo was in danger. The option before Gandalf was this: either leaving Frodo in possible danger and remain in Orthanc, or going to help him (not even necessarily save him) but at that moment unavoidably causing a confrontation which could very likely end up with somebody's death. I think Mr. G. would pick the first option. "...For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

However, like I said, I think there was no real confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman. When the negotiations failed, Gandalf stopped, he did not attack - but at the same he did not capitulate, did not submit, did not do what Saruman wanted from him. I believe Gandalf didn't try to use power to contest Saruman there. In PJ's movie, the one who starts the "duel" is Saruman, because he becomes angry. But in the books, there was no reason for him to become angry to attack Gandalf - it says he was "cold and perilous". He was "cold", he was aware of his superiority at the moment, so he just sent the guards to escort Gandalf to the top. Saruman wouldn't have started anything. So, the only one who could have tried to use his power to get away would be Gandalf then. Gandalf the aggressor? And that's what I believe he won't do.

While I agree there was no wizard duel between the two I don't think that Gandalf allowed Saruman to imprison him because he thought it was the right thing to do. The way I see it he simply did not have a choice, not because Saruman was mightier than him, but rather because he was alone in the fastness of Orthanc, surrounded by thousands of armed servants of Saruman. Gandalf the Grey was indeed a deadly foe (and at times the aggressor too, at least against Orcs) but he could not take out armies all by himself.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

I think that Gandalf felt this way. He could have fought Saruman, but he didn't want to start a fight which, even if he won, would only have resulted in the destruction of his foe, and I don't think that he wanted that. Even at the end he wished that Saruman found healing, and it may be that he felt the same about Sauron.

Also, remember Frodo and Gollum. The one who still holds true doesn't kill the one who was corrupted.

Maybe a better comparison would be to Manwe and Melkor. Melkor was chained up for ages (literally) and then released back into thw world. I'm sure a similar thing would have happened if Saruman hadn't escaped.