What counts as "canon"?

[Ashbranch]

Hehe - that looks like a very long and involved thread! I pretty much agree with your suggestion that some works are more "cannon" than others, on a sort of sliding scale, though just to muddy the waters even further the text of LotR was changed by Tolkien for the various editions that came out in his lifetime, and indeed since. Same with the Hobbit, and the Sil, of course, was edited and in some places substantially altered by Christopher Tolkien.

[Lalwendë]

Yeah, you could even start asking which edition of each text is the only canonical one

Does a first or the latest edition of Lord of the Rings have greater authority?

[Ashbranch]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yeah, you could even start asking which edition of each text is the only canonical one

Does a first or the latest edition of Lord of the Rings have greater authority?

I suppose Tolkien's most recent version of a thing is the most authoritative - hence Strider and not Trotter, say. But do we then extend this to "corrections" made posthumously? Recent editions of LotR have "corrected" the info about the kings of Numenor so that it conforms to that found in Unfinished Tales, for example.

[skip spence]

This is a debate I've never partaken in before and to be quite honest I find the little I've seen of it rather silly.

I suppose the only real canonical works would be The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Ring as they are published by JRRT himself. Then again there are many things in TH that in all likelihood made the author himself cringe afterwards, like for instance having Bilbo read a newspaper in the opening scene. This probably goes for LotR as well. Some of the ideas of JRRT's later writings might on the other hand contradict what was already published but still be better conceptions according to the author. So although JRRT appeared to have felt bound by what he already published, I don't think we readers must feel this way.

When there is a contradiction, I tend to "believe" in the version I like best, regardless of what others think is canon or not.

[Ashbranch]

Since, in constructing my website, I have treated Tolkien's works as historical accounts, the concept of "cannon" doesn't really enter into it. We might say that one historian is more reliable than another, or even that somes works by the same historian are more reliable than others, but nothing is infallible, and we can always learn more.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, are you aware that you are starting the whole debate anew? Instead of learning something from the past, you wish to do that again? You are posting no different things than what dozens of people posted before you on that horrible thread... Silly people!



Seriously, wouldn't it be easier to merge this thread with the old one? (Like it didn't have enough pages already... ) Or, are we planning to start a brand new discussion? Well, why not. "Canonicity 2: The Next Unteachable Generation".

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ashbranch

I suppose Tolkien's most recent version of a thing is the most authoritative - hence Strider and not Trotter, say. But do we then extend this to "corrections" made posthumously? Recent editions of LotR have "corrected" the info about the kings of Numenor so that it conforms to that found in Unfinished Tales, for example.

Ah yes, but what about the timeline of Tolkien's work itself? In some of his very last work, you detect signs of it getting baggy round the edges and unravelling a little, and I have to admit, some of his last thoughts were not his clearest sadly.

Originally Posted by skip

Then again there are many things in TH that in all likelihood made the author himself cringe afterwards, like for instance having Bilbo read a newspaper in the opening scene.

Really? I don't find that odd at all. There must be some kind of printing press in The Shire due to all the books Bilbo seems to own, and literacy is reasonable (even though there are no signs of schools). I should think newspapers would be devoured by Hobbits what with their love of gossip.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Really? I don't find that odd at all. There must be some kind of printing press in The Shire due to all the books Bilbo seems to own, and literacy is reasonable (even though there are no signs of schools). I should think newspapers would be devoured by Hobbits what with their love of gossip.

I do find it anachronistic, yes. I did a quick google-search and found that the first true newspaper in English was from 1666. There are no doubt others here with more knowledge than I in these matters but I feel that the technological level of the world of LotR - with a few additional anachronisms excluded - much pre-dates the 17th century, although a direct comparison with actual history perhaps isn't advisable.

[Ashbranch]

I must admit that when Tolkien describes the fireworks at Bilbo and Frodo's party as resembling an express train, or words to that effect, it seems a little odd. True, this is the author talking to his readers. We must assume that the Hobbits would have had no idea what he was talking about. Odd, all the same.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I do find it anachronistic, yes. I did a quick google-search and found that the first true newspaper in English was from 1666. There are no doubt others here with more knowledge than I in these matters but I feel that the technological level of the world of LotR - with a few additional anachronisms excluded - much pre-dates the 17th century, although a direct comparison with actual history perhaps isn't advisable.

I don't know....The Shire seems to be more late 18th century or early 20th century to me, both in feel and in culture.

Though I have to say that maybe attaching real historical periods to different cultures in Tolkien's world is maybe not advisable in general, it being a fantasy world and all that. If you try and pin it down to one time frame something seems to slip out and stand out as being anachronistic.

[Nogrod]

I kind of share Skip's uneasiness with the newspaper in Bilbo's hand. I mean, if there were newspapers in such a "backward" place as Hobbitton there should be yellow press in Minas Tirith! Just think of the headlines!

Or, from the printing press a typewriter is not so far away...

But:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Though I have to say that maybe attaching real historical periods to different cultures in Tolkien's world is maybe not advisable in general, it being a fantasy world and all that.

This is very true. Even if one is compelled to join certain discoveries to others as it would be "natural" to do so. And maybe just because of that.