Mordor inspired by Nazi Germany? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nogrod · 09-23-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

I was also interested in rorschach's points about the geographical location of Mordor. There is actually a parallel that is both medieval and Christian, and which supports Tolkien's assertion that the south-eastern siting of the Black Land was a geographical necessity.

Looking at the European civilisations it's pretty easy to see that the threats came (come!!!) from east and south whether they were (are) persians, carthagenians, huns, slavs, ottomans, arabs...

It's the basic story of the West. And wasn't Tolkien writing a mythology eg. the "basic story"?

Morthoron · 09-23-2008, 09:47 PM

I don't think Tolkien's story is at all analogous with specific eras of real history. For every comparative point to real events and his chronology, there are wholly divergent themes occurring simultaneously with those that many commentators claim as allegorical.

It is better to say that the compendium is a masterful amalgam of Tolkien's studies and interest, a synthesis linguistic in intent, that covers a wide spectrum of biblical and mythological allusions (Antedeluvian, Atalantan, Miltonian, Finnish, Icelandic, Graeco-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, etc.), and is both anachronistic and archaic simultaneously. How else can one explain the advent of gunpowder in the West occurring simultaneously with an almost total reliance on chain mail (with only a single mention of a crossbow or arbelist-like weapon), and the mentions of clocks, newspapers, new world imports and trains in a 16th or 17th century squirearchy in the Shire alongside a pre-feudal kingship such as in Rohan?

Tolkien's vast conglomeration defies allegorical interpretation unless one wishes to parse out the prose into tiny bits. Reading Tolkien's letters, it is clear that even he was often mystified by his own work, saying one thing imperatively early on, then drastically changing his view decades later. He even plops in a character like Tom Bombadil, who any rational reader can plainly see does not fit neatly into any Middle-earth categorization whatsoever, but is placed there because Tolkien liked the character and felt his presence was important (cosmological questions be damned).

One can no more equate Alfredian Wessex with the story than one can try to compare the Ring with the atomic bomb, neither can one present Mordor as Nazi Germany in a cogent manner any more than you can imply that Gondor, or its precedent Numenor, was built on the foundations of Constantinople. People have tried, but in the end it never adds up to a completely consistent theory. There are resemblances, there are facsimiles, there are hints, but there are never one-to-one comparative ratios. That is the mark of true genius, and obviously the reason we will be arguing this same topic into the ground well after the dead horse has been beaten into bits so tiny that we will be sparring over equine molecules.

Gwathagor · 09-23-2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Looking at the European civilisations it's pretty easy to see that the threats came (come!!!) from east and south whether they were (are) persians, carthagenians, huns, slavs, ottomans, arabs...

It's the basic story of the West. And wasn't Tolkien writing a mythology eg. the "basic story"?

Some of the most significant, defining threats to the western world have come from the north, as seen by the invaded states. The Romans had the Goths, Vandals, and Huns, Charlemagne had his nemeses the Saxons, and everybody suffered under the ubiquitous Vikings.

I agree about those other invasions though, the Muslims in particular.

davem · 10-05-2008, 12:01 PM

Actually, Tolkien's inspiration for LotR was the Wars of the Roses - Aragorn was clearly modelled on Richard III - even down to the broken sword:

.

Elrond is therefore Warwick, the Kingmaker, whose daughter Aragorn goes on to wed....

09-23-2008, 09:47 PM	#2
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	I don't think Tolkien's story is at all analogous with specific eras of real history. For every comparative point to real events and his chronology, there are wholly divergent themes occurring simultaneously with those that many commentators claim as allegorical. It is better to say that the compendium is a masterful amalgam of Tolkien's studies and interest, a synthesis linguistic in intent, that covers a wide spectrum of biblical and mythological allusions (Antedeluvian, Atalantan, Miltonian, Finnish, Icelandic, Graeco-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, etc.), and is both anachronistic and archaic simultaneously. How else can one explain the advent of gunpowder in the West occurring simultaneously with an almost total reliance on chain mail (with only a single mention of a crossbow or arbelist-like weapon), and the mentions of clocks, newspapers, new world imports and trains in a 16th or 17th century squirearchy in the Shire alongside a pre-feudal kingship such as in Rohan? Tolkien's vast conglomeration defies allegorical interpretation unless one wishes to parse out the prose into tiny bits. Reading Tolkien's letters, it is clear that even he was often mystified by his own work, saying one thing imperatively early on, then drastically changing his view decades later. He even plops in a character like Tom Bombadil, who any rational reader can plainly see does not fit neatly into any Middle-earth categorization whatsoever, but is placed there because Tolkien liked the character and felt his presence was important (cosmological questions be damned). One can no more equate Alfredian Wessex with the story than one can try to compare the Ring with the atomic bomb, neither can one present Mordor as Nazi Germany in a cogent manner any more than you can imply that Gondor, or its precedent Numenor, was built on the foundations of Constantinople. People have tried, but in the end it never adds up to a completely consistent theory. There are resemblances, there are facsimiles, there are hints, but there are never one-to-one comparative ratios. That is the mark of true genius, and obviously the reason we will be arguing this same topic into the ground well after the dead horse has been beaten into bits so tiny that we will be sparring over equine molecules. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

10-05-2008, 12:01 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Actually, Tolkien's inspiration for LotR was the Wars of the Roses - Aragorn was clearly modelled on Richard III - even down to the broken sword: . Elrond is therefore Warwick, the Kingmaker, whose daughter Aragorn goes on to wed.... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."