A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Thinlómien]

What mostly caught my attention in this chapter was the sheer materialism of it. Just how much useless stuff do Hobbits produce if there's a birthday about every day and they give lots of presents, many of which end up as mathoms? And this is certainly not the only manifestation of ghastly Hobbit materialism... Okay, I need to cut this talk, I just seem to be more and more concerned about all this stuff lately - yesterday I spent about five minutes what a horrible waste crisis all the toothbrushes people use and throw away so carelessly create... I need to keep in mind that neither Hobbits nor Tolkien lived in a time in the brink of an environmental catastrophe and would not realise to be concenred about such stuff. Besides, one can always argue the Hobbits promoted local industry and economy by buying all this stuff and blah... (capitalism strikes again... eurgh. Where are you, Nogrod? )

Also, there are two examples of rather rude behaviour by nice Hobbits in this chapter. I wonder if it's because I don't get Brits'/Tolkien's/Hobbits' sense of humour or because it's really rather rude. First, there's this:

For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondance, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.

I've always wondered about that and considered it rather rude and weird, but actually now that I wrote it here, I can suddenly see two ways of interpreting it. Yay! Maybe Bilbo and Dora were so close that this passed as a good-natured joke between them, or maybe the narrator's tone is actually a little sarcastic when saying she had written reams of good advice. However, I'd be interested to hear how others understand this...

Okay, and the second rude thing:

"You'll live to regret it, young fellow! Why didn't you got too? You don't belong here; you're no Baggins - you - you're a Brandybuck!"
"Did you hear that, Merry? That was an insult, if you like," said Frodo as he shut the door on her.
"It was a compliment," said Merry Brandybuck, "and so, of course, not true."

And really, again, I think I realised as soon as I wrote it here. Haha. I was wondering why does Merry tease Frodo this evilly, but now I realised Frodo actually starts it. So this is just affectionate teasing between freinds, and now it even makes sense to me why it takes place. I had always thought that teasing remark of Merry's a little weird... This CbC stuff is most enlightening.

And as for the coming of age mentioned here -
wouldn't it be easier for all of the teenagers/young adults of this world if all the parents would do like Bilbo: just disappear when the kid comes of age and leave him the house and the property?

Onto next chapter...

[Thinlómien]

First off, it intrigues me how Bilbo becomes the Mad Baggins of legends. I think the little detail of the stories of TH and LotR merging together clearly shows Tolkien's love of stories and fairytales, and his deep knowledge of them.

Also, funnily, like skip, I ended up wondering about the origin of the Ring-verse. Sauron made it, you say? Makes sense, if we take into account the fact that he wrote it on the One Ring. But how on earth did it become a part of Elvish ring-lore?? Did Sauron already write it in Eregion and told it to the Elves while laughing secretly to himself and then went and made the Ring? Or when he had made it, did he perhaps send the Elven smiths a message: "Hi I made a Ring and now I'll kill you all. Btw, here's a poem about the Rings I made. Mwahahahahaa." Weird.

Ok, on a totally different topic, I've always liked the way Tolkien talk about autumn here, how the Bagginses always yearn to travel in the autumn. I wonder if it's because of that that I and many other Tolkien fans I know feel an urge to return to Tolkien's books especially in autumn. Whatever the reason, it's very beautiful, I think.

Lastly, it's funny how it's dercibed how Frodo's longing for an adventure grows when he grows older. It got me wondering if the whole Quest only took place because Frodo had a middle-age crisis...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

How the Ring verse got into Elven lore is no real puzzle at all, I think. During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of the verse,

Out of the Black Years came the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed.

The verse is not just a creepy poem; it is, I believe, the spell through which Sauron bound the lesser rings to his, including the Three which he apparently knew about, but had never touched. It's not terribly surprising that the Elves would remember it. How they heard it, or if only those who owned the Three heard it, is perhaps the only real puzzle. That and where Sauron learned how to make such nice poetry (though if he could invent the Black Speech, one might suppose that he if no one else could write poems in it ).

The rather conspicuous consumerism of the Hobbits also doesn't surprise me overmuch. Even though they were unaware of it, their land was being protected from some of the worst hardships of the world. Unlike virtually every other corner of Middle-earth, they had no need to support a standing militia to protect their lands and their borders; the last Enemy incursion they were required to fight directly happened quite some time ago, by the time of LotR. Not that they couldn't have defended themselves, but when there is no need to do so for long periods of time, people forget, evil things become fodder for pub tales and scary bedtime stories, and the resources that might have been used to support an army or some such are turned to other, more pleasant things. If the Shire had suffered from drought or blights on a regular basis, there doubtless would have been a greater prudence and wariness about the future, but they seem (to me, at least) to have reached a state where the average Hobbit doesn't worry about being attacked or about where the next meal will come from (even if some folk have fancier meals than others). As Gandalf has said about them, you have to put a Hobbit in a pinch to see what is truly in them, and since they seem to have an uncanny knack for avoiding pinches, it's no wonder they appear bucolic, naive, and fond of pleasures and comforts.

I believe that's part of the point of Bilbo's extravagant party at the beginning. It's a kind of conspicuous consumerism at its height in the Shire -- but once the party is over, literally, reality comes in and rears its ugly head. It's time for all the Hobbits to grow up as a people, to take their place in the world as a part of it, able to both provide for themselves and defend themselves. We see this growth in the Hobbits that become part of the quest, and it is reflected back home, where we don't see it until the end. I always found this rather nicely done; the perils and trials of the four Hobbit companions reflected some of the things that were happening in the Shire, which we didn't see (in more than rumors or prescient glimpses) until they returned home, when it was no longer quite the surprise it might have been, had any of the four remained naive until the end. LotR thus has a more "happily ever after" feeling at its beginning than at its end, which is almost more "once upon a time," an end that is a new beginning.

Whoa, where did that come from? The things that creep out of my head after morning meditation...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

The things that made me wonder here were two things rather loosely related to the main theme. They would probably merit threads of their own, but I will mention them briefly. First off, Tharbad. We know it was a city of men, we know where it was located and we know the year of its ruin and desertion (T.A. 2912). But what else? Who were these people who lived there? When was the city founded and by whom? What kind of political role did it play? I have never come across with any further information about the city yet the topic intrigues me...

Okay, this is not exactly on topic, but concerning this, there are some passages which at least briefly speak about Tharbad and the region around it in the Unfinished Tales, I think it's the "additions" after the tale of Aldarion and Erendis. Quite some stuff, about Númenoreans coming to Middle-Earth and making their first havens there...

However, they key thing here, I think, is that no one was really oppressed or discriminated in the Hobbit society. The rich helped the poor, women were (I think) rather equal with men even though the traditional gender roles were predominant (hmm... please, let's not talk about this because otherwise I might start ranting *would add smiley if hadn't passed the limit already*) and even those considered odd (like the Bagginses) were tolerated and had some friends. I think we could rather safely assume that homosexual Hobbits would be treated similarily. Gossiped about, and not always nicely, but in principle liked and tolerated and not shunned. Even though, I find the idea of a publicly gay Hobbit very hard to imagine.

Actually, of all the societies in Middle-Earth, I can imagine gay Hobbits probably the best. And I would rather stay with what you said at first: that homosexual Hobbits would be treated similarly. If there were any existing in there, I think except for a few Sandymans to gossip, they might be quite widely well accepted.

and in the Scouring of the Shire there are written rules on the walls of the "guest-house" or whatever it is. One could assume that if Saruman's ruffians new hobbits were illiterate, they would not bother with written rules.

Speaking of this, I might add that I wonder whether the Ruffians could read... I'd actually wonder if they did. But maybe Saruman, being the propagator of "Knowledge, Rule, Order" made all his servants as educated as possible, literacy included? Anyway, this is off-topic - let's save this for the final chapters of the re-read

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, there are two examples of rather rude behaviour by nice Hobbits in this chapter. I wonder if it's because I don't get Brits'/Tolkien's/Hobbits' sense of humour or because it's really rather rude.

You kind of answered yourself during the course of writing , but at least to me, it never seemed rude. Although somebody said that Czech and English people have similar sense of humour - but personally, I don't think it would be THAT different with these "regional humours". Anyway, Merry's joke is just very good, I have never noticed what Frodo says before really, but I think what Merry says is just a very nice, very clever and simply just brilliant way to make a joke like that. It's that kind of "intelligent way of saying something rude, while making it also really funny in the process".
And as for how I understood the present for Dora, I always imagined it like that when writing to Bilbo and Frodo, she may have produced also lots of "by-products" or badly written letters which she later decided to throw away. However Bilbo's intention may be interpretated otherwise, I certainly wouldn't even think of looking for any sarcasm from the author's part in it.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

How the Ring verse got into Elven lore is no real puzzle at all, I think. During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of the verse,

The verse is not just a creepy poem; it is, I believe, the spell through which Sauron bound the lesser rings to his, including the Three which he apparently knew about, but had never touched. It's not terribly surprising that the Elves would remember it. How they heard it, or if only those who owned the Three heard it, is perhaps the only real puzzle. That and where Sauron learned how to make such nice poetry (though if he could invent the Black Speech, one might suppose that he if no one else could write poems in it ).

Sauron sure was a great poet; remember, he was a Necromancer, or rather THE Necromancer (something like THE Ka), and remember his "battle" of songs with Finrod... in M-E, every "Wizard", resp. "Spell-caster" was also a singer and a poet, or at least one of those. Saruman was at least a rhetor, if nothing else... The power of words... hmm... that would almost do for a thread...
And yes, I agree what you say about hearing the words. It is obvious from the text that the Elves heard it, imagine whatever you wish under it, I always imagined it the way it's said, but you can think of any theories yourself, like "clairaudience" or "teleempathy" or whatever. Isn't this referred to in any Letter, by the way? Just asking.

I had some ideas also to comment on from the posts above, but I don't recall now... maybe fortunately, thinking about the length...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And as for how I understood the present for Dora, I always imagined it like that when writing to Bilbo and Frodo, she may have produced also lots of "by-products" or badly written letters which she later decided to throw away. However Bilbo's intention may be interpretated otherwise, I certainly wouldn't even think of looking for any sarcasm from the author's part in it.

Maybe you should think again

For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondance, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.

To me this certainly is sarcasm both from Bilbo and the author. No doubt Bilbo was royally tired of being lectured about god knows what (likely how to be more respectable) and I imagine he also let Dora know as tactfully as he could that he had no need her "good" advice. She probably understood his wish for less junk-mail perfectly well too but ignored it completely. Thus, the large waste-basket symbolises what Bilbo thought of her advice and where her letters usually ended up. Rude? Yes I suppose so. Perhaps she deserved it.

Most of the presents Bilbo gave away (at least the mentioned ones) where attached with similar sarcastic puns and with, for the receiver, clear symbolic meaning. Lobelia gets silver spoons as a present (as opposed to the ones she had stolen earlier), Angelica gets a mirror (as she is all too fond of her reflected image) and Milo Burrows gets a golden pen and and ink bottle as he never responds to letters.

Hm. Actually there where other things I wanted to say but that will have to wait.

[alatar]

Completely unrelated, and hopelessly behind in the discussion, but if I don't note this now, I never will (which some of you may consider to have been the wiser choice):

The phrase 'as a rule' is used at least four to five times in the first two chapters. I think that there is a thread regarding this phrase, but not due to the number of times it is used. After this, I doubt that it will show up with as much frequency.

Such repetition!

[Nogrod]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!

On Three is a Company the first thing that strikes my mind is the beauty of the way Tolkien describes the last days in Hobitton for Frodo, Sam and others. It really is something I really appreciate: the mood, the feeling, the detail; all serve to build for the more gloomier destiny that is about but it still fills the reader with the reminiscent feeling of the world there will be no more. It's plain genius.

There is another of my great favourites here in this chapter as well, meaning Bilbo's lore about paths and roads taking you where you don't know they might do. I remember when I was very young (like ten) and my father read the LotR to me as a bedtimestory that one thing made me wonder indeed. I spent hours and hours with the globe-ball (lighted inside) in my bedroom in the evenings when it was all dark around, looking for different ways the paths might bring one almost anywhere, and I was most disappointed with the seas!

But that really has been a thing that has followed me from that early childhood onwards. I'm still awed by the roads and paths... I mean be careful where you step into!

To make this even more interesting one might quote Gildor in the end of the chapter: "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out". Talking about multiculturalism and the ways of the world today - Tolkien was just a prophet in this matter! These roads will make us meet "the other" before we make use of them ourselves to reach the other places (not counting the organised holiday trips that are more sham than real).


Also the elven attitudes to the hobbits is an interesting thing - how they kind of scorn and play them as fools before they actually notice it's Frodo (the heir of Bilbo) and how grave their quest is... But still they don't give them more help but a promise to send their "message throught the lands".

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

How the Ring verse got into Elven lore is no real puzzle at all, I think. .. How they heard it, or if only those who owned the Three heard it, is perhaps the only real puzzle. That and where Sauron learned how to make such nice poetry (though if he could invent the Black Speech, one might suppose that he if no one else could write poems in it ).

There is no puzzle indeed. The Elves of Eregion who wore the Rings at the moment when Sauron made the Ring-spell (SA 1600) heard it - and took the Rings off, never to wear again in the Second Age.
All the Rings were made for Elves: the 9 the 7 and the 3 alike. (The plan to give them to different reces was Sauron's alone). The Seven were all distributed among the Elves by the time Sauron attacked Eregion (SA 1695). The Nine not yet - they were still kept in the House of the Mirdain. The data are from UT "History of Galadriel and Celeborn"
Thus I believe in 1600, when the One Ring was made, at least 10 of the Mirdain heard Sauron's spell.