Guns - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

arelendil · 09-02-2002, 03:28 AM

in the time of LOTR why didn't they have guns they had gunpowder for fireworks so why didn't they make them are they missing something else? would it make it easier...
BANG..
dead blackrider.1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9
BANG.. bye bye orcs
BANG... no more balrog opps doesn't quite work like that!!
But you know what i mean don't you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

anduril444 · 09-02-2002, 08:11 AM

guns dont fit into a fantasy story.U would think that the noldor elves who make swords that glow and and talk,would be capable of makeing firearms.ut it just doesn't fit into the scheme of things.

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 09:07 AM

Heh....ever played WarCraft? Sooooo much of it is based on LotR, except the Dwarves had "rifles" (really muskets) and mortar. It certainly doesn't ruin the feel of the fantasy, though.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 09-02-2002, 10:15 AM

I have Warcraft 3. But Gandalf's fireworks worked on magic, not gunpowder.

anduril444 · 09-02-2002, 10:45 AM

Whch brings up another point were did the blasting fire from isengard come from.did saruman really shoot it like misseles from his tower.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 09-02-2002, 12:02 PM

This brings up another interesting topic. What would happen if The Lord of the Rings took place in Modern Days? Would we just put the ring on some uninhabited island and fire a nuclear missle at it? Or would there be a full scale war?

Beren87 · 09-02-2002, 01:18 PM

The Chinese(inventors of gunpowder) didn't use guns until intriduced to them by Europeans. They did use their rockets/fireworks as battle signals and missles however.

Aramacil · 09-02-2002, 01:20 PM

I think the ring would just be shot in space, that would solve a lot of problems!

ork _huntr · 09-02-2002, 02:44 PM

a gun's more complicated than one would think. to make a musket trigger you need mercury caps which are HIGHLY unstable, then after you shove the the musket and powder wrapped in cloth down with a ramrod , placed the cap in the needle nose and lit the fuse you still after all your work you have a 25% chance of misfire. it also depends if your shooting a brown betsy or an import. the whole process of loading takes about 15 min. why do that when you can run up to them and hack them to pieces? swords and arrows are just about instant and 15 min to load in close combat and wading through orcs. swords would be more practical. unless you had a CZ, AK47, or M1 garand. then it would be different. there now i've given you your gun history lesson for the day. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 09-02-2002, 02:54 PM

The question is why they <em>didn't</em> have CZs, AKs, or M-1s.

burrahobbit · 09-02-2002, 03:16 PM

Quote:

I have Warcraft 3. But Gandalf's fireworks worked on magic, not gunpowder.

At least some of them were from the Dwarves in Erebor. Orcs used explosives at the Hornburg, and I think also elsewhere. In the Hobbit when they are captured by Orcs in the Misty Mountains there is a smell of gunpowder in the air.

Quote:

a gun's more complicated than one would think.

No they aren't. Guns are much less complicated than one might think. Modern guns are certainly quite complicated, but why would they have a modern weapon? The first guns were a metal tube with a big hole on one end and a smaller hole on the other. They didn't even have moving parts! And where do you get such a crappy time as 15 minutes? Maybe if they had to make the gunpowder from scratch each time, but otherwise no.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 09-03-2002, 12:08 AM

Something interesting, you can make gunpowder using human droppings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

With early guns (Revolutionary War), a good marksman could fire three rounds a minute.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ]

Nevfeniel · 09-03-2002, 08:04 PM

AND did you know that peanuts are an ingredient in explosives? Yeah, you thought you knew everything, didn't you. . .
Okay, now back on topic.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Nevfeniel ]

Guildo · 09-03-2002, 08:41 PM

Did you know you can make "Ben Gay" from Athalas Kings Foil that is.

Any as far as the guns go, We know Gandalf was renowned for his fireworks, and we dont know of any one else in the world that has such a thing. Perhaps Gandalf was the first to invent Gun Powder, im sure he was a fine alchemist. And knowing what reprecussions it might have kept it to himself.
anothe fact to this is that in our day in age we think oh sure i could have thought to make a gun, but remember there was no public school in middle earth and quite frankly people just were not as book smart as we are for them to invent a gun, would be like a caveman inventing a lightbulb.

but thats just my 2 lembas worth

Demloth of Dol Amroth · 09-04-2002, 05:48 PM

gunsssss! SSSSSS! *puts on creepy bilbo face from movie* we hatesss them!!! SWORDS! anyway, if they did use gunpowder, they probably would've used hand cannons or something like in Age of Empires 2-inacurate, dangerous, but powerful, and REALLY heavy. just for note: i'm not against right-to-keep-and-bear-arms, and all that, but i say they(guns) corrupted warfare! o for the days of bows and arrows! alas!

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-05-2002, 12:54 PM

Any maggot could shoot someone with a gun. Hand-to-hand combat, that's what makes a hero! I never liked guns much and ever since I read LotR last year I don't have any time for guns at all.

Tirned Tinnu · 09-05-2002, 12:58 PM

Saruman used it in Helm's Deep. The Orcs fired something like cannons at the walls...
the round objects being hurled were filled with "sorcerer's fire" they called it, I think. Evil stuff!

Eol · 09-05-2002, 01:52 PM

Yes guns and cannons(especially earlier one were terrible inacturate) but did that matter? No as cannon balls can take out more people in mass then with arrows.

In a way, gunpowder was magic as the knowledge of how it worked was not known. As you may have noticed, Tolkien never really got into the fourth age with emense detail as the previous ages.

Early guns and cannons were also very dangerous, many men died because of a misfire. As to Middle earth, Men and other would get there hands on gunpowder and use it as it was more powerful then arrows and swords.

There was also mention of siege machines( catapults, balistas). How can one person not look them and not think about putting black powder to it.

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

gayare'dion · 09-07-2002, 09:38 PM

ive played this one computer rpg, game, called arcanum. it was basically a land of fantasy, in an industrial revolution. you could be a half ogre, half orc ( you couldnt be an orc or an ogre cause theyre 2 stupid), elf , half elf, human, dwarf, gnome, or halfling. you could pick certain spells, but if you got into techy type of disciplines, youd be weaker in magic. it was a really cool, game with a great plot. i tottally recommend it

arelendil · 09-08-2002, 08:33 AM

i've finally started a topic people reply to!! soo they could make guns but didn't want to! thanks that helped now i know not to have guns in my restaurant!

Aramacil · 09-08-2002, 02:01 PM

You have guns in your restaurant?

arelendil · 09-09-2002, 12:37 PM

No!!
I'm doing a textiles project called 'cafe project' i'm making an elven cafe set in rivendell! though that doesn't belong in here!

Samwise · 09-12-2002, 07:16 PM

Quote:

guns dont fit into a fantasy story.U would think that the noldor elves who make swords that glow and and talk,would be capable of makeing firearms.ut it just doesn't fit into the scheme of things.

Yike. Some discussion. I agree with the above...and if they could have had firearms and just "blasted the Nazgul" or whatever, it would have made things a whole lot easier and, therefore, one wouldn't have much of a story. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
That makes me think of something, though...hm. But this is the wrong part of the forum....

NazgulNumberTen · 09-12-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Yike. Some discussion. I agree with the above...and if they could have had firearms and just "blasted the Nazgul"

(gulp)

Demloth of Dol Amroth · 09-13-2002, 10:21 PM

however, very little seems to peirce the undead flesh of the nazgul. i think someone with a gun would still have a hard time slaying a wraith with it, as the wraith will presumably be charging him down on horseback or dive-bombing him with their evil bird-pterodactyl things-and that makes them a moving target, thus very hard to hit. factor in recoil, the impeccable inefficiency of early gunpowder weapons, powder explosions, and most likely mister triggerhappy will die, most unpleasantly, either by mishaps with his own weapon or one very peaved rignwraith. eomer of rohirrim-you may not even have half an idea who i am or where i am, but we might as well be blood-brothers-I totally agree with your opinion! hand 2 hand, thats how to do it!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ]

rutslegolas · 02-01-2004, 03:36 AM

i personally think that guns wouldnt fit well into this fanatsy

how would u like if all the elves had sniper rifles instead of bows and arrows wouldnt it feel queer

zb · 02-01-2004, 07:03 AM

As an interesting aside, in one of Tolkien's non-ME stories, "Farmer Giles of Ham", Farmer Giles owns a blunderbuss which he didn't use much, but when he did he filled it mostly with old nails and other random schrapnel.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the inhabitants of ME (not) having/using weapons.

09-02-2002, 03:28 AM	#1
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	Guns in the time of LOTR why didn't they have guns they had gunpowder for fireworks so why didn't they make them are they missing something else? would it make it easier... BANG.. dead blackrider.1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9 BANG.. bye bye orcs BANG... no more balrog opps doesn't quite work like that!! But you know what i mean don't you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

09-02-2002, 09:07 AM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Heh....ever played WarCraft? Sooooo much of it is based on LotR, except the Dwarves had "rifles" (really muskets) and mortar. It certainly doesn't ruin the feel of the fantasy, though. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 10:15 AM	#4
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	I have Warcraft 3. But Gandalf's fireworks worked on magic, not gunpowder. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

09-02-2002, 12:02 PM	#6
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	This brings up another interesting topic. What would happen if The Lord of the Rings took place in Modern Days? Would we just put the ring on some uninhabited island and fire a nuclear missle at it? Or would there be a full scale war? __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

09-02-2002, 01:20 PM	#8
Aramacil Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 131	I think the ring would just be shot in space, that would solve a lot of problems! __________________ "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."

09-02-2002, 08:11 AM	#2
anduril444 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 12	guns dont fit into a fantasy story.U would think that the noldor elves who make swords that glow and and talk,would be capable of makeing firearms.ut it just doesn't fit into the scheme of things.

09-02-2002, 10:45 AM	#5
anduril444 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 12	Whch brings up another point were did the blasting fire from isengard come from.did saruman really shoot it like misseles from his tower.

09-02-2002, 01:18 PM	#7
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	The Chinese(inventors of gunpowder) didn't use guns until intriduced to them by Europeans. They did use their rockets/fireworks as battle signals and missles however.

09-02-2002, 02:44 PM	#9
ork _huntr Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: if i knew i would tell you Posts: 12	a gun's more complicated than one would think. to make a musket trigger you need mercury caps which are HIGHLY unstable, then after you shove the the musket and powder wrapped in cloth down with a ramrod , placed the cap in the needle nose and lit the fuse you still after all your work you have a 25% chance of misfire. it also depends if your shooting a brown betsy or an import. the whole process of loading takes about 15 min. why do that when you can run up to them and hack them to pieces? swords and arrows are just about instant and 15 min to load in close combat and wading through orcs. swords would be more practical. unless you had a CZ, AK47, or M1 garand. then it would be different. there now i've given you your gun history lesson for the day. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ i can't take his money, i can't print my own money, i have to work for money,why don't i just die? oh.. so that's what that button does.

09-02-2002, 02:54 PM	#10
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	The question is why they <em>didn't</em> have CZs, AKs, or M-1s. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

09-03-2002, 12:08 AM	#12
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Something interesting, you can make gunpowder using human droppings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] With early guns (Revolutionary War), a good marksman could fire three rounds a minute. [ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ] __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

09-03-2002, 08:04 PM	#13
Nevfeniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mithlond Posts: 783	AND did you know that peanuts are an ingredient in explosives? Yeah, you thought you knew everything, didn't you. . . Okay, now back on topic. [ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Nevfeniel ] __________________ Consider the purr a variety of audible tranquilizer. [. . .] For a few of us, there is one more purr, a secret purr. When we combine our secret purrs, we produce the Purr of Power. And that is simply the amplified amity we feel as furred and purred beings.

09-03-2002, 08:41 PM	#14
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Did you know you can make "Ben Gay" from Athalas Kings Foil that is. Any as far as the guns go, We know Gandalf was renowned for his fireworks, and we dont know of any one else in the world that has such a thing. Perhaps Gandalf was the first to invent Gun Powder, im sure he was a fine alchemist. And knowing what reprecussions it might have kept it to himself. anothe fact to this is that in our day in age we think oh sure i could have thought to make a gun, but remember there was no public school in middle earth and quite frankly people just were not as book smart as we are for them to invent a gun, would be like a caveman inventing a lightbulb. but thats just my 2 lembas worth __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-04-2002, 05:48 PM	#15
Demloth of Dol Amroth Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 105	gunsssss! SSSSSS! puts on creepy bilbo face from movie we hatesss them!!! SWORDS! anyway, if they did use gunpowder, they probably would've used hand cannons or something like in Age of Empires 2-inacurate, dangerous, but powerful, and REALLY heavy. just for note: i'm not against right-to-keep-and-bear-arms, and all that, but i say they(guns) corrupted warfare! o for the days of bows and arrows! alas! [ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ] __________________ One by one the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Ring-but there were some, who resisted...

09-05-2002, 12:54 PM	#16
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Any maggot could shoot someone with a gun. Hand-to-hand combat, that's what makes a hero! I never liked guns much and ever since I read LotR last year I don't have any time for guns at all. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-05-2002, 12:58 PM	#17
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Saruman used it in Helm's Deep. The Orcs fired something like cannons at the walls... the round objects being hurled were filled with "sorcerer's fire" they called it, I think. Evil stuff! __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-05-2002, 01:52 PM	#18
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	Yes guns and cannons(especially earlier one were terrible inacturate) but did that matter? No as cannon balls can take out more people in mass then with arrows. In a way, gunpowder was magic as the knowledge of how it worked was not known. As you may have noticed, Tolkien never really got into the fourth age with emense detail as the previous ages. Early guns and cannons were also very dangerous, many men died because of a misfire. As to Middle earth, Men and other would get there hands on gunpowder and use it as it was more powerful then arrows and swords. There was also mention of siege machines( catapults, balistas). How can one person not look them and not think about putting black powder to it. [ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ] __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

09-07-2002, 09:38 PM	#19
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	ive played this one computer rpg, game, called arcanum. it was basically a land of fantasy, in an industrial revolution. you could be a half ogre, half orc ( you couldnt be an orc or an ogre cause theyre 2 stupid), elf , half elf, human, dwarf, gnome, or halfling. you could pick certain spells, but if you got into techy type of disciplines, youd be weaker in magic. it was a really cool, game with a great plot. i tottally recommend it __________________ i like pants!

09-08-2002, 08:33 AM	#20
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	i've finally started a topic people reply to!! soo they could make guns but didn't want to! thanks that helped now i know not to have guns in my restaurant! __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

09-08-2002, 02:01 PM	#21
Aramacil Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 131	You have guns in your restaurant? __________________ "I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."

09-09-2002, 12:37 PM	#22
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	No!! I'm doing a textiles project called 'cafe project' i'm making an elven cafe set in rivendell! though that doesn't belong in here! __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

09-13-2002, 10:21 PM	#25
Demloth of Dol Amroth Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 105	however, very little seems to peirce the undead flesh of the nazgul. i think someone with a gun would still have a hard time slaying a wraith with it, as the wraith will presumably be charging him down on horseback or dive-bombing him with their evil bird-pterodactyl things-and that makes them a moving target, thus very hard to hit. factor in recoil, the impeccable inefficiency of early gunpowder weapons, powder explosions, and most likely mister triggerhappy will die, most unpleasantly, either by mishaps with his own weapon or one very peaved rignwraith. eomer of rohirrim-you may not even have half an idea who i am or where i am, but we might as well be blood-brothers-I totally agree with your opinion! hand 2 hand, thats how to do it!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Demloth of Dol Amroth ] __________________ One by one the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Ring-but there were some, who resisted...

02-01-2004, 03:36 AM	#26
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	i personally think that guns wouldnt fit well into this fanatsy how would u like if all the elves had sniper rifles instead of bows and arrows wouldnt it feel queer __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

02-01-2004, 07:03 AM	#27
zb Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: perth, west australia Posts: 71	As an interesting aside, in one of Tolkien's non-ME stories, "Farmer Giles of Ham", Farmer Giles owns a blunderbuss which he didn't use much, but when he did he filled it mostly with old nails and other random schrapnel. Of course, this has nothing to do with the inhabitants of ME (not) having/using weapons. __________________ "Do you think I am trying to weave a spell? Perhaps I am; but remember your fairy tales. Spells are used for breaking enchantments as well as inducing them. And you and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness..." - C.S. Lewis