Ulmo and the Ring War

[CSteefel]

But can Ulmo defeat Manwe in single combat??

Anyway, I might not have paid much attention to this thread, except that I just reread Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin in the Unfinished Tales. Here he

sat by a stream that trickled forth near to the door of the cave where he dwelt

and he is suddenly inspired to play his harp and sing an Elven song

...and even as he sang the well at his feet began to boil, and it overflowed, and a rill ran noisily down the rocky hillside before him. And Tuor took this as a sign, and he arose at once and followed after it.

Now we don't see any such direct sign from Ulmo in LOTR, but the suggestion is perhaps still that his power lurks in the waters even far from the sea. Perhaps it is true that the connection between the Valar and Middle Earth faded after the 1st Age, and again after the drowning of Numenor, but as recounted in some of the examples above in which the Eagles suddenly arrive, one has to think that the Valar have not completely cut themselves off from Middle Earth.

[Feliandreka]

Ok, so the Eagles protected Gondolin for hundreds of year and the secret of its location was only betrayed at the end by Hurin and Maglin, persons out of the control of the Eagles.

Does anyone think that Manwe, to whom the Eagles serve, was their air traffic controller, governing their flight patterns and telling them what to do at every turn? No. Absolutely not. The Eagles were very intelligent. The descendants of the same birds who protected Gondolin lived in the Misty mountains in the time of the war of the ring. Can we not suppose they were just as intelligent, though perhaps diminished in stature from the birds of old, and had their own means to follow the events of the world? Who can suppose they were not aware of the Battle of Five armies? All they had to do was look down. They hate goblins as much as men and elves and dwarves. What better time to kill them when they are in the open attacking their own humanoid allies?

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.

Who can say what Tolkien thought on matters such as this. He probably thought less about it that all of us do. But his writings are poetry and his world like a religion. The faithful have no choice but to speculate. It is really fun!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.

But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

I have to admit, the appearance of the eagles at the Battle of 5 Armies and (more so) at the Morannen, always struck me as Deus ex Machina. This is the only part of Tolkien's writings with which I've ever taken exception.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

And thanks specifically to Legate of Amon Lanc for the direct comments to my first post

You are welcome, of course. And that's why we are here - to discuss these things

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Does anyone think that Manwe, to whom the Eagles serve, was their air traffic controller, governing their flight patterns and telling them what to do at every turn? No. Absolutely not. The Eagles were very intelligent. The descendants of the same birds who protected Gondolin lived in the Misty mountains in the time of the war of the ring. Can we not suppose they were just as intelligent, though perhaps diminished in stature from the birds of old, and had their own means to follow the events of the world? Who can suppose they were not aware of the Battle of Five armies? All they had to do was look down. They hate goblins as much as men and elves and dwarves. What better time to kill them when they are in the open attacking their own humanoid allies?

The point is, nobody had to tell the Eagles what to do. This idea that Manwe was still ordering them about in the 3rd age does not seem realistic to me. The Eagles governed their own affairs and had their own sources of information. Helping Gandalf was on their adgenda, as was aiding the Heir of Numenor. It is in their very nature, so long as they retain some measure of their former stature, be it size and or inteligence, to oppose Sauron and his minions.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But why was helping Gandalf on their agenda? I have offered suitable context for their miraculous aid. And it was miraculous was it not? Consider: why would a large group of Eagles suddenly appear at precisely the right time, thousands of miles from their home range, and in Mordor of all places? How did the Eagles know precisely where to go? It really doesn't add up -- unless they were sent by some divine agency. One thought might be Radagast, as he sent an Eagle to Orthanc, but that was coincidental, and it was not sent to aid Gandalf; in addition, Radagast is never shown to help the cause in any other sense thereafter, nor was he in council with the Western allies (perhaps deservedly Saruman characterizes him as rather thick). So, then logically they must have been sent by someone else.

Also, where in any text did it say the Eagles were interested in aiding the Heir of Numenor? They could care less for mortal men (except for stealing their sheep). The Eagles only offered assistance to Gandalf. And in the quotes I offered in a previous post, it seems reasonable (lets not use the word realistic, this is after all a fantasy) that Manwë was still able to influence matters in Arda. And it is not out of the realm of possibility, given the fact that he sent the Istari on their mission in the first place. Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

I would actually side with Morthoron here. I am not saying that the Eagles were guided by Manwë all the time: no, certainly not, but they were not so even in the First Age; and indeed, as Feliandreka says, they were intelligent and had their own reason to guide them. If I were to compare the Eagles to another species in Middle-Earth, I would say Ents, for example. However, I believe that on several particularly important occassions, there may have been a divine guidance for them. Certainly the Battle of Morannon, it seems too improbable for the Eagles to appear there just like that, as Morthoron said.

One thing about which we could discuss is, whether it had to be Manwë, or any of the Valar, or whether it might have been perhaps Eru himself. Valar gave up their rulership of Arda: but if we were discontent with the idea of Valar intervening, why could not Eru himself directly intervene?

But, now one related thing I have to note as well:

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Everything points to non-involvement of the Valar. Without actual proof of visions or directions in some secret manner, Gandalf was just lucky enough to discover the ring first. But the odds of dealing with it were so slight that the story has great meaning for people because it explores the limits of the hearts of the characters as they develop and find the bravery and courage to accomplish thing which they never would have guessed they could do. Consider the heart darkened Eonwy slaying the Lord of the Nazgul, the minstrel begging leave to sing of Frodo and the Ring of Doom and the description of that song on the company, the final mental battle between Frodo and the Ring at Mount Doom, even the grief of Sam as he returns to the Shire...no I have to say all these things were experienced through the courage and motivations of individuals who played out the story.

In any case, even from LotR it is clear - and this I would like to point out in reaction to Feliandreka's post - that there was something else at work, not only the efforts and doings of the characters, but some other powers: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring etc. I say we need to see both sides of the coin: yes, there was the fact that I emphasised in my first post, that Valar lay down the rulership of Arda. On the other hand, there was still something working there: be it Valar themselves, or Valar on Eru's direction, or Eru himself.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I have to admit, the appearance of the eagles at the Battle of 5 Armies and (more so) at the Morannen, always struck me as Deus ex Machina. This is the only part of Tolkien's writings with which I've ever taken exception.

That's true and I have to agree with it, however then, when it's already there - and I don't even consider it that disturbing when I read about it, maybe only when I reflect on it - it indeed gives one the thought that it indeed was "Deus (sic!) ex Machina" - a divine intervence.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot one important thing. Despite the fact that Valar lay down their rulership over Arda, Ulmo was still the one who never abandoned the dwellers of Middle-Earth before. Although this step was really too far, I still find it weird that Ulmo, the one who always was the closest to the Children and those who remained in Middle-Earth, would not wish to interfere in any way to the troubles of Arda: like I said in my first post, other Valar sent their Maiar as Istari at least - but what about Ulmo? If this was the only help the Valar could give to M-E, I would expect him to wait in the front line and push Manwë and Varda (! Morthoron - it was Varda as well who had her share on sending Olórin, and at least she was the one who said the famous words "not as third") to send his Maiar there!

[Feliandreka]

First let me thank you all before going into another rant.

The Eagles protected Gondolin at the height of Morgoths power in that time. The Eagles held the Valar in reverence and owned Manwe as their lord. Again, it is clear that Manwe instructed the Eagles to protect Gondolin, a place practically next door to Angband, and so they did, very effectively. What were their resources? They had great intelligence and incredible eyesight. True, they probably had the help of many allies, all loyal to the will of Manwe. True, they definately had the assistance of Manwe, who had the help of Varda who could see through any darkness, or was it Manwe who could see well and Varda who could hear any call for help...anyway, you get my drift. But once the locaton of Gondolin was discovered there was nothing keeping Morgoths army from simply walking there. If anything surprises me about the fall of Gondolin it is that the city did not get better warning from the attack from the Eagles. Although not specifically written about perhaps Morgoth found some way to keep the advance secret...in addition to the festival that is, maybe the Eagles were invited. Ha Ha Ha. Ok...no laughing matter!

You all argue that the Eagles showed up at the right place at the right time. They were at the Battle at the Black gate where Aragorn lead a diversion to draw the Eye away from Frodo. No doubt the inner councils of the Wise, Gandalf, Aragorn, Eomer and other lords of men were not available to the Eagles. They were at the Battle of Five Armies but were they instructed to go there? Did they need to be instructed? Ok, the Eagles helped the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf escape from the Wargs and Goblins by carrying them away to their aeries. But if the Eagles had not already seen them during their flight from the tunnels of the Goblin complex, would they have not seen them when Gandalf started lighting off pine cones?

So the Eagles have a habit of being in the right place at the right time in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. So also was Thorondor in the Silmarilion. But the motivation of all Eagles in Tolkiens works appears to be to thwart the minions of Melkor/Sauron (or evil creatures in general) and assist the enemies of those minions. Can we call them allies of the Valar? Certainly. It is interesting to me to find this reference from the Encyclopedia of Arda

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/g/gwaihir.html

It shows that Gwaihir was the son, or at least, the descendant of Thorondor. I don't recall where it says Gwaihir was related to Thorondor in the works of Tolkien so forgive me. What is important is that an Eagle like Gwaihir was a spirit taken bird form after the manner of the Maiar--he was a Maiar or a descendant of one--and therfore was likely to be very old. (Originally some Maiar took the form of the elder children...some took the form of animals.) It also seems likely to me that the Eagles possessed their own information network, built chiefly upon their outstanding vision, they could see troop movements from a mile up just as they could see a playing card. Can anyone honestly say that these amazings creatures could not have know when a battle was brewing?

When Gandalf and party had been rescued in the Hobbit Gwaihir asked Gandalf what his mission was. Is that a question of a creature who has the speed dial to Manwe? And also someone pointed out that if Gwaihir had the guidance of the Valar then Gandalf would not have be trapped upon the pinnacle of Orthanc for so long while peril for the world drew ever closer.

Alright, I concede the unlikelihood that the Eagles came to the aid of Aragorn at the battle before the black gate. There is no relationship between Aragorn and the Eagles. But they did come for their own reasons to that battle and other battles. Whether they came on their own accord or they were guided by the Valar we may never know.

I said Tolkien's world was like a religion to some. the Eagles...a good example. In some matters where there simply is no evidence to support a theory one is able to make a leap of faith based upon other consistencies within the body of work. I will tell you what I believe. I believe the Eagles needed no instruction to be allied with any and all creatures who opposed the enemies of the Valar. The very nature of the Eagles, bred to serve Manwe out of love for Manwe, did not change from age to age. Their cause and purpose was clear even after the Valar changed the world and things began to diminish. While Gwaihir was likely a mere shadow of an Eagle King when compared to great Thorodor of old, he retained the intelligence to lead and govern his people in like manner. As was Gondolin the charge of Thorodor cannot we assume Gwaihir had similar motivations toward Middle Earth. Make no mistake, by the spirit within him I can see a connection to the Valar. But if that connection meant that he was receiving tip offs to times and places of great events or if Gwaihir was simply using his own prowess as a king to keep himself informed, we may never know.

There is no evidence to suggest either possibility. So like I said, believe what you will. I think the Eagles deserve more credit and should be considered one of the highest, most honorable races, they had the capabilities to know world events and act independently. They were not dumb animals directed by distant forces.

But how can I dispute the possibility that they were directed by Manwe? I just put out the claim that Ulmo knew about the whereabouts of the Great Ring and arranged the finding of it by Bilbo and Gandalf. I now agree with some of you that this is unlikely, that the Valar had withdrawn most of their influence. But at the end of the Hobbit, and forgive me for not being able to make a direct quote as I don't have it handy, after a description of happenings at the Lonely Mountain from Balin, Bilbo says something about the prophesies coming true after all. To that Gandalf asks Bilbo if he thinks all his adventures were arranged for his sole benifit. He then says that Bilbo is just a little person in a large world. To me that seals the mystery and invites open interpretation. It is all true, and up to the reader.

Thank you all,
Feliandreka

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

They were at the Battle of Five Armies but were they instructed to go there? Did they need to be instructed? Ok, the Eagles helped the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf escape from the Wargs and Goblins by carrying them away to their aeries. But if the Eagles had not already seen them during their flight from the tunnels of the Goblin complex, would they have not seen them when Gandalf started lighting off pine cones?

I am not sure if I understood the two last sentences - as far as I know, the Eagles noticed only the burning pine trees, that was the first time they noticed something happening, and later they saw that somebody's up there and they saved Gandalf. But they have not seen the Dwarves and Gandalf escaping from the underground.

But, anyway, to the main point. I believe the Eagles' intervention had nothing to do with the relationship to Gandalf, even less to the Dwarves (they didn't have any): it is stated in the Hobbit explicitely, and it has been already even quoted here, that the goblins were the Eagles' bitter enemies. And that is sufficient, and it goes well with the "task" of the Eagles: they were the breed brought into Middle-Earth by Manwë in order to guard and protect the others, and be in the battle against Morgoth and whatever he created. Battle of the Five Armies, despite its importance and impact which could have been seen only later (preservation of the Ring, the Kingdom Under the Mountain as a protection against the Easterlings...), was not as important event for the Valar or whatever providence might have guided the Eagles (if we decide it guided them in several other times) to intervene. In this case, and that has been already mentioned before, it was most probably solely the Eagles' own initiative. But I still doubt about the decisive Battle of Morannon.

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

It also seems likely to me that the Eagles possessed their own information network, built chiefly upon their outstanding vision, they could see troop movements from a mile up just as they could see a playing card. Can anyone honestly say that these amazings creatures could not have know when a battle was brewing?

You have to take into account, that battle was brewing everywhere at that time. In the Anduin Vales, in Mirkwood, also there was an attack on northern Rohan - all of this much closer to the Eagles' home than the Black Gate. Why did they arrive just there, and how did they know that they should go just there? Okay, even if they decided to intervene not close to their homes, but to the battles in the South (which by itself is illogical, but okay), then wouldn't it be logical to head for Minas Tirith, and not the Black Gate, where it wasn't even known if any army is going to march there! No, I will say with Gandalf: "There was something else at work."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Alright, I concede the unlikelihood that the Eagles came to the aid of Aragorn at the battle before the black gate. There is no relationship between Aragorn and the Eagles. But they did come for their own reasons to that battle and other battles. Whether they came on their own accord or they were guided by the Valar we may never know.

My objection to their appearance at the Morannon is only on a literary level. The only other appearance they make in the entire trilogy is when Gandalf is rescued from Orthanc. Then, suddenly, they appear at the Battle of the Black Gates.

I'm not a published author, and certainly am I no J.R.R. Tolkien. But every creative writing class I ever took cites deus ex machina as anathema. The eagles at Morannon are reminiscent of the cavalry making its first appearance in a western film to help the besieged pioneers... at the very climax of the story.

I wish Tolkien had simply left them out of that scene.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I have to admit, the appearance of the eagles at the Battle of 5 Armies and (more so) at the Morannen, always struck me as Deus ex Machina. This is the only part of Tolkien's writings with which I've ever taken exception.

I just reread this part of the Hobbit and the Eagles there say that they saw lots of activity by the Goblins, and a march to the south. So they seem to have put two and two together there, probably without the aid of Gandalf or Manwe. But I agree, in the battle on the Morannon, it seems the Deux Ex Machina is at work...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Remember, it was Manwë and Nienna who chose Olorin over his objections, and it seems likely that it was Manwë who chose to ressurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, thereby directly influencing the final outcome of the War.

On the matter of who chose to resurrect Gandalf, Tolkien was explicit: it was Eru.

from Letter 156:

In the end before he departs for ever he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron.' He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth.' But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning. He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until me task is done.' Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' [Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time.'

Elsewhere, Tolkien makes it clear that "Authority" means Eru, and that "out of thought and time" does not mean back to Valinor, because even though it is no longer a part of the physical planet, it still exists within Time and must, until the End. Earlier in the same letter, he says:

But G. [Gandalf] is not, of course, a human being (Man or Hobbit). THere are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I would venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel' ... an emissary from the Lords of the West, sent to Middle-earth, as the great crisis of Sauron loomed on the horizon. By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

Why they should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them. They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with thise world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the faineance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'. The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plan anyway (he makes mistakes of jugdement). For in his condition, it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment, he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards,' as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.

Between this and the essay on the Istari in UT, I think Tolkien makes it quite clear that though the Valar feel they cannot become directly involved in the matters in ME, they are still certainly concerned and paying attention to what happens there. Even Eru himself is not above a little bit of off-stage meddling, as he is the one who sends Gandalf back after death, and in an enhanced condition better suited to the needs of the job. I don't think that Manwe directly told any of the eagles in ME to go to a specific place at a specific time, but I do think he might have "nudged" them, given them a feeling to head in a certain direction, where they might be at the right place in the right time. He cannot interfere with their choice, but like Ulmo, he could "whisper," and the whispers had a chance of leading to positive results, if the one who hears chooses to listen, and act. Also, I don't quite think it's the same to compare them to the Eagles of the First Age, since there is some question as to whether or not Thorondor was actually an Eagle, or a Maia in the form of an Eagle. A subject for an entirely separate discussion, I'm sure.

Oh, one last thing about the Eagles, from Letter 210 (a lovely discourse on how NOT to adapt LotR as a film):

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine.' I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness

Deus ex machina, indeed.

[Formendacil]

First of all, the requisite thanks for the resurrection of this thread. Alas, but all the good points have already been made, leaving me with only a few musings left to ponder.

With all the talk of Manwë and Ulmo being involved in the War of the Ring, I'm left to wonder if any of the other Valar contributed. For the most part, this is out of character with our retiring demi-gods, but not all.

Firstly, it seems that a great deal more ought to be said of Varda. Not least, of course, because Elbereth gets invoked several times over the course of the epic. The question, however, is does this ever actually result in any response from Taniquetil, or is it just the name of "Elbereth" that acts--which itself brings up another form of the Ulmo-water-power question... is the Vala in question actually active, or is there just a latent power that can be called up? (Varda's name by Frodo, Ulmo's water by Elrond.)

I'm also left wondering a bit about Yavanna and Oromë. Saving Ulmo, these two are characterised in the earlier parts of the Silmarillion as those most sympathetic to the plight of Middle-earth and those who visited it most. And yet, with the Flight of Noldor, it seems that we never again hear anything along these lines--apart from the reference in the Valaquenta, if recall aright, that Oromë hunts in these lands less (but still somewhat therefore) than aforetimes. As for Yavanna, the Ents are as much her creatures as the Eagles are Manwë's--though there is no reason to see any direction communication on her part to them, they nonetheless act, as intended when she pleaded for their creation, as the vengeful guardians of the olvar.

There's also the matter of the White Tree sapling that Gandalf leads Aragorn to on the slopes of Mindolluin. The seed must have lain there at least a few centuries before germinated a mere half dozen years or so before. Why did it start growing then--just in time for Aragorn's return? Granted, there is a hallowed propheticness about the White Trees going back to Tar-Palantír's time, but we're never really told under whose direction the White Trees are going to miraculously follow the courses of the line of Lúthien.

Uinen and her love of the Númenoreans has been touched on briefly once, and I'd love to think there's more to the story here--the Númenoreans, after all, reverenced her as equal to the Valar, according to the Valaquenta--but alas, we are given only the slightest indications of what took place at sea during the 3rd Age, and for all the sources we have, Uinen may have abandoned the Númenoreans once Andor sank beneath the waves.