The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Anyway, to get somewhat back to the very original topic, I actually find the second thing Ibri quoted as most interesting for this discussion:

What does it mean - "change of plan"? Does it simply refer in other words to the reshaping of the world (i.e. rather "change of architectonic plans"), or does it get to the core of the problem we are questioning here? Doesn't it seem to you that this quote sounds almost like "there happened an accident"? Perhaps it's the word "occured" that makes me think so: had there been "Eru drowned them all", I would think otherwise. This sounds rather as if it were indeed an "accident", as some were implying here. Most curious, are we getting here the chance to see what Tolkien himself thought about it, or am I reading too much to this?

First, Tolkien's conception of Sauron as inherently good (or not evil) in the beginning does not conflict with pre-Vatican II theology. To infer that Catholicism ever harbored a duality of good and evil (as would be the implication had Sauron or Morgoth been evil in the beginning) would be in error, as that was heretical back to the time of the Arian heresy as well as the Albigenses in the Middle-ages.

Second, I do not believe it was accidental, nor do I think the quote "a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred" infers any accident whatsoever. What it refers to is a surrender of choice by the Valar to the all-consuming power of Eru. In that remission of leadership, the Valar gave up any and all detente, cajoling or pleas to Numenor for a final verdict by Eru, who chose once and for all to divide Valinor from Arda and inflict the severest of all penalties upon Numenor. But even in his wrath, Eru appears as Yahweh to Noah, saving the faithful under Elendil (which I believe differentiates Atalante from Atlantis as there were no survivors in the Greek tradition).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

First, Tolkien's conception of Sauron as inherently good (or not evil) in the beginning does not conflict with pre-Vatican II theology. To infer that Catholicism ever harbored a duality of good and evil (as would be the implication had Sauron or Morgoth been evil in the beginning) would be in error, as that was heretical back to the time of the Arian heresy as well as the Albigenses in the Middle-ages.

Actually, what I was really referring to was my specific experience with a Catholic upbringing, which can vary widely, depending on the priests and nuns doing the teaching. The words of doctrine can be the same, but the impact will differ depending on how they are presented and the commentary and interpretation that follows. The clergy who taught at my church and school were very much of the mind that we are all sinners, sinners, sinners, evil wicked things in our very creation, and we must constantly strive for what they presented as an impossible goal of redemption. I suspect that Tolkien's teachers had a somewhat less "doom and gloom" presentation of Original Sin and its relevance to his personal life and ability to achieve salvation. But because of my own rearing, it astonished me to read those words in his writing. My parish priests and nuns certainly didn't believe that nothing was evil in its beginning, and it truly amazed me to hear another Catholic say otherwise. Still does, and I've long since left the Church.

Didn't mean to start a theological bruhaha; I should've been a bit clearer that I was speaking from a very personal viewpoint.

Second, I do not believe it was accidental, nor do I think the quote "a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred" infers any accident whatsoever. What it refers to is a surrender of choice by the Valar to the all-consuming power of Eru. In that remission of leadership, the Valar gave up any and all detente, cajoling or pleas to Numenor for a final verdict by Eru, who chose once and for all to divide Valinor from Arda and inflict the severest of all penalties upon Numenor. But even in his wrath, Eru appears as Yahweh to Noah, saving the faithful under Elendil (which I believe differentiates Atalante from Atlantis as there were no survivors in the Greek tradition).

In fact, in the same letter, Tolkien does refer to the "Noachic" situation of Elendil and the Faithful. And when he says "change of plan," I wonder if he might not mean "the plan as the Valar understood it," or perhaps even "the Valar's plan," since they were the ones who came up with the idea of fashioning Numenor as a reward. The other time Tolkien refer to a "change of plan" is, I believe, elsewhere in the same letter, when he talks about the resurrection of Gandalf, and Eru's widening of a plan which began as the Valar's. In both cases, Eru intervened to change the situation after it had failed, in one way or another. The magnitude of the necessary intervention is, perhaps, in correlation with the magnitude of the error of those involved -- or perhaps of the plan itself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Actually, do you know what the Meneltarma always makes me think of? The Kaaba at Mecca! And oddly, that itself is a pillar, maybe not in shape, but it is one of the Five Pillars of Islam.

Interesting...

Interesting indeed. But truly, it would be pretty clear even had not Tolkien written it down there, that he used mount Sion (or possibly mount Gerizim for the Samaritans) as inspiration for Meneltarma, even with the annual festival of coming up there and that even then not everybody could come to the very top. Hey, wasn't there even something like that only the King (in the function of "high priest" here) would make the prayer to Eru? That would be similar to the thing in pre-exile Judaism that only the high priest would call on the Name of God once a year there.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And when he says "change of plan," I wonder if he might not mean "the plan as the Valar understood it," or perhaps even "the Valar's plan," since they were the ones who came up with the idea of fashioning Numenor as a reward. The other time Tolkien refer to a "change of plan" is, I believe, elsewhere in the same letter, when he talks about the resurrection of Gandalf, and Eru's widening of a plan which began as the Valar's. In both cases, Eru intervened to change the situation after it had failed, in one way or another. The magnitude of the necessary intervention is, perhaps, in correlation with the magnitude of the error of those involved -- or perhaps of the plan itself.

Well, I would say it was the way that there was certain "plan" laid down in the Music - the plan with which Valar counted; and that there were some "inner laws" of the world, some apparent on first sight, some more obscure, but still, they were set in some way, so to say, to the law of action and consequences. That quote from Ainulindalë

for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past

simply means that the inner laws of the world (which were "codified" by the Music) are not compelling to Eru himself, and that the chain of action and consequences is not the final thing (as said quite explicitely in the quote).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hey, wasn't there even something like that only the King (in the function of "high priest" here) would make the prayer to Eru? That would be similar to the thing in pre-exile Judaism that only the high priest would call on the Name of God once a year there.

Yes, that was the way of it. During Eruhantale, when the people went up to the top of Meneltarma, only the King would speak.

Well, I would say it was the way that there was certain "plan" laid down in the Music - the plan with which Valar counted; and that there were some "inner laws" of the world, some apparent on first sight, some more obscure, but still, they were set in some way, so to say, to the law of action and consequences.

There was clearly the "plan" that was made in the Ainulindale, of course, but within the world, there are also the workings of free will, which is a quality Eru appears to have given both to the Children and the Ainur. The smaller "plans" of the Valar -- such as the sending of the Istari, the bringing of the Elves to Valinor, and the creation of Numenor -- weren't necessarily in the bigger "plan" (indeed, Eru didn't care much for the notion of the Valar taking the Elves out of Middle-earth), and thus I don't think that the destruction of Numenor was a "change of plan" that meant a change of something that was specifically included within the Music. It, I think, was a variation on a theme that cropped up as a sort of "cadenza" during the "performance," so to speak, and thus required an alteration of some "measures" to bring things back into harmony with the original "score." (Cripes, do I have "I'M A MUSICIAN" tattooed on my forehead or something...? )

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It, I think, was a variation on a theme that cropped up as a sort of "cadenza" during the "performance," so to speak, and thus required an alteration of some "measures" to bring things back into harmony with the original "score." (Cripes, do I have "I'M A MUSICIAN" tattooed on my forehead or something...? )

I echo your sentiments regarding the tattoo burnished across my addled pate. Amusingly, I had always wondered if Morgoth was world's first jazz musician and offered syncopation and riffing in minor notes that threw off the staunch and majestic Bach-like chorals of the Ainulindalë. Or perhaps he was a Stravinsky in a china shop and upset the celestial harmony with stark motifs and variations of brashness that would appeal to the more revolutionary elements of the Ainur (after all, the Bohemian Balrogs seemed partial to his innovations).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I echo your sentiments regarding the tattoo burnished across my addled pate. Amusingly, I had always wondered if Morgoth was world's first jazz musician and offered syncopation and riffing in minor notes that threw off the staunch and majestic Bach-like chorals of the Ainulindalë. Or perhaps he was a Stravinsky in a china shop and upset the celestial harmony with stark motifs and variations of brashness that would appeal to the more revolutionary elements of the Ainur (after all, the Bohemian Balrogs seemed partial to his innovations).

I tend to think Melkor/Morgoth was more on the order of Karlheinz Stockhausen (untraditional, controversial, and you either loved him or hated him) or Pierre Schaeffer and music concrete (which, when I was in college, often inspired reactions from students, even of jazz, on the order of, "what the heck is THAT???"). If you love what they do, you are an avid devotee of their works, but if you don't... well...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But even in his wrath, Eru appears as Yahweh to Noah, saving the faithful under Elendil (which I believe differentiates Atalante from Atlantis as there were no survivors in the Greek tradition).

Any mention of Noah reminds me of Eddie Izzard's take: Eddie Izzard's Noah's Ark

although I suppose that with Ulmo watching over the waters, there wouldn't be any evil fish to survive.