The Straight Road

[Lalwendë]

Cheers, Guin, saved me a job there as I wanted to talk about that quote

Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible that passed through the air of breath and of flight (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa,

As I said, you know me, I like to know how things work (Elves walking on custard and so forth...) and this gave me plenty of things to think about when I was rummaging through HoME the other night for more info.

Firstly there's that 'permitted'. OK so that might be something Men say happens, that someone or some thing 'permits' passage, and it might not actually happen that way. But if it does need 'permission' then who gives it and how?

And who can have that permission? Do ships sail out simply hoping to be granted it or do they get some kind of message?

Secondly there's the idea that the Road is a bridge which goes through the sky (very HDM...) and the real world falls away, so that Valinor is literally removed from the world. Therefore it isn't in 'the West', it's not even in the world itself.

Then finally there's this "flesh unaided cannot endure" line. Here I'm thinking around the issue wildly but bear with me.....The Elves, we know, can exist as a fea without a hroa, but Men cannot - though Sauron may have found a way with his Ringwraiths. Do Elves simply forgo their hroa as they pass the Straight Road, knowing they can have another once they get to the Halls of Mandos? The mortals we know for certain who travel the Straight Road at the end of the Third Age are all Ringbearers, and the Ring definitely has some effect on the hroa and either removes it or absorbs it or makes it disappear (however it does it, it definitely does do something to it). Does something about the Ringbearers and what they have experienced make it likely that the Straight Road works by doing something to fea/hroa?

Slightly mad, I know, but I have to examine why and how it works

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Then finally there's this "flesh unaided cannot endure" line. Here I'm thinking around the issue wildly but bear with me.....The Elves, we know, can exist as a fea without a hroa, but Men cannot - though Sauron may have found a way with his Ringwraiths. Do Elves simply forgo their hroa as they pass the Straight Road, knowing they can have another once they get to the Halls of Mandos? The mortals we know for certain who travel the Straight Road at the end of the Third Age are all Ringbearers, and the Ring definitely has some effect on the hroa and either removes it or absorbs it or makes it disappear (however it does it, it definitely does do something to it). Does something about the Ringbearers and what they have experienced make it likely that the Straight Road works by doing something to fea/hroa?

Slightly mad, I know, but I have to examine why and how it works

An intriguing theory, Lal, and perhaps the correct view -- if it weren't for Tolkien's insistence on muddying up the waters. For instance, there's that hint that Legolas and Gimli rowed their boat ashore (alleluia!), and made it to Aman. Of course, we aren't necessarily positive that they made it, but it seems the sentimental Tolkien adds these little nuances for the express purpose of assuring us that they did indeed arrive.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, by the description of Ilmaren, then, "flesh unaided" should probably not be able to survive there, either, given that the uttermost height of Taniquetil appears to pierce the habitable regions of the atmosphere. And yet, if I'm not mistaken, weren't some of the Elves invited to Ilmaren (most notably the instance when Manwe was trying to get Feanor to reconcile with his half-brothers)? If they could survive then, and if Earendil can survive his nightly passages in Vingilot, then I think we can find the fingers of the Valar at work, protecting the various incarnates in areas where they should not be able to survive. We are shown the moment of Frodo's arrival in Aman, and he does not appear to be a spirit; indeed from the description in LotR, he doesn't even appear to have noticed that the ship ever left water. We also know from a variety of places that the permission given for the Hobbits to reach the West came from the Valar through their remaining representative in ME, Gandalf. So it seems to me that we have two versions of such a journey being posited: one in the legends of Men, who appear to believe that the ship leaves the water and passes on into the air and the void, where the passengers must be protected by some greater power to survive until they arrive in the detached Aman; and another in which it seems that the ship simply passes through a "curtain" separating one world from the other, and the passengers never notice the moment of transit as anything more (this being more or less what is described at the end of LotR). The latter version may not be quite accurate either, since it is in Hobbit lore, and appears to be based on knowledge of Frodo's dream/vision in the house of Tom Bombadil; I would presume that the very last parts of the Book were written by Sam and perhaps Merry and Pippin, based on what Frodo revealed in what he himself wrote before he departed Middle-earth. The one thing that does appear to be rather consistent is that permission from the Valar is required for the ship to properly enter the Straight Road (that permission might be in the form of what Tolkien described as "hallowing," the process of which he never describes, though I imagine it is a ritual only the Elven shipbuilders know); lacking it, it would merely stay on the seas of earth.

What would happen to a stowaway... I suppose it would depend on whether or not the Valar were aware of his or her presence onboard. I suspect they would be; the fiasco of Numenor would probably have them on guard about such things. I would imagine such a ship would fail to enter the Straight Road, the crew and passengers would begin to wonder what was up, and a search would be made until the culprit was found and returned to ME. That presumes rather a lot, I suppose.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

An intriguing theory, Lal, and perhaps the correct view -- if it weren't for Tolkien's insistence on muddying up the waters. For instance, there's that hint that Legolas and Gimli rowed their boat ashore (alleluia!), and made it to Aman. Of course, we aren't necessarily positive that they made it, but it seems the sentimental Tolkien adds these little nuances for the express purpose of assuring us that they did indeed arrive.

Hmmm, wonder if Gimli ever made those jewels with Galadriel's hair encased in them and if he left them in Middle-earth? After all, her hair must have had something special about it or Feanor wouldn't have pestered her so much for some of it?

It's only Gimli who is the problem there, and as a Dwarf he'd be different yet again to a Man or Hobbit?

Actually, if Legolas and Gimli went over in a ship of their making, then it also was not something about the ships that could get you there, was it?

Originally Posted by Ibrin

I think we can find the fingers of the Valar at work, protecting the various incarnates in areas where they should not be able to survive. We are shown the moment of Frodo's arrival in Aman, and he does not appear to be a spirit; indeed from the description in LotR, he doesn't even appear to have noticed that the ship ever left water. We also know from a variety of places that the permission given for the Hobbits to reach the West came from the Valar through their remaining representative in ME, Gandalf.

Much as I hate to say it, yes, the Valar may well have had something to do with it all. And even more so considering their big mistake over Numenor and Eru's having to be called out of a nice long bath to intervene! You'd think he'd want them to keep a better eye on things, wouldn't you?

I hate to say it because I'd much rather find a more pleasingly 'scientific' explanation for the Straight Road

I've also been thinking about Light. In much the same way as a Prism can break a beam of light and split it into component colours, the 'rain curtain' makes me think of a singular Road belonging to the everyday world splitting into others at that point (a raindrop is also a prism), one of which leads to Valinor. It also makes me think of that other old fave topic of mine, Saruman's 'breaking of the Light' after which he becomes Saruman of Many Colours....and it makes me think of how the characters in HDM can see other cities through the Aurora Borealis, through a kind of 'broken light', as the Aurora is caused by particles from the Solar wind reacting with our own atmosphere....

There's a quote I found in a volume of HoME t'other night (I think it was in The Lost Road) about how via one of the Palantiri it was still possible to catch a glimpse of Valinor, which suggests it was not entirely removed from the world. And though I don't know nearly enough about it, I believe under some conditions, light refraction can make it so things over the horizon can actually be seen?

Interesting that those watching Frodo's ship leave, though, did not report a rain cloud, though the point about it not actually dipping over the horizon is one I'd not thought of and it's obviously at that point when it goes. Was it at sunset? I'l have to go and check that one....it might have bearings on the idea of 'broken light' being the factor....hmmm....

[Boromir88]

And then there's the question of How Does It Work? I always like to know how things work.~Lalwende

That's Saruman's thinking, and precisely why you're off the Straight Road.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

That's Saruman's thinking, and precisely why you're off the Straight Road.

I know, but isn't he brilliant? I always read about him wanting to know things and know how things work and how they can be improved and thought he was great.

I should imagine that of all the people in Middle-earth, Saruman might be the one who could tell you how the Straight Road works. I think that the designation of 'white' to the head of the order suggests that this 'colour' (or lack of colour or combination of all colours, depending on how you view 'white' as a symbol in Tolkien's world) is linked in some way to Valinor or beyond, to Eru.

Saruman!" he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council." He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. "Saruman your staff is broken." There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet.

[mark12_30]

Would you rather know how it works, or cross it?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Would you rather know how it works, or cross it?

Well, if we're talking about Valinor versus Middle-earth, I'd take M-E any day. I much prefer Hobbits to Elves, and there are promises of things like Dragons too in M-E. In that case I'd much rather know how it works, if I must decide whether to understand it or cross it - yes, I get the impression that you cannot have both

If however it was a Straight Road to Middle-earth then I might put my science books (these would be rubbish science books, going by my scant knowledge :P ) away and just feel it

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I know, but isn't he brilliant? I always read about him wanting to know things and know how things work and how they can be improved and thought he was great.

I should imagine that of all the people in Middle-earth, Saruman might be the one who could tell you how the Straight Road works. I think that the designation of 'white' to the head of the order suggests that this 'colour' (or lack of colour or combination of all colours, depending on how you view 'white' as a symbol in Tolkien's world) is linked in some way to Valinor or beyond, to Eru.

Yes, Saruman would know such secrets; however, he seems the type that if you have to ask him, then you are not worth knowing, and certainly not worth being in his presence. He is a closed book.