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#1 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Well, just a short comment from me now. I think most of what you said could be a part of the reason. But I also thought of something else, and that's what I thought of as the first, that simply Hobbits were so much of a rural simple folk, that they just had to have something "intellectually deep" to spend their time with. I am pretty sure they usually did not delve into complicated philosophical disputations, we know they did not construct complicated technological inventions, but let's face it, they must have had some "intellectual needs" and they must have ventilated them in some way. So they picked the genealogies. As good topic as any.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
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The Hobbits of The Shire lived in a society modelled on that of Nineteenth Century rural England. In such a system, a person's identity depended not so much on his character or abilities as on the relative importance of his family and his "class".
Geneology becomes very important to you if your position in society and your prospects in life depend on how closely related you are to the more powerful, land-owning families. . |
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#3 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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A very interesting thread, Esty, and a rare one, as I cannot recall seeing this topic discussed in the ancient days of the Barrow.
Selmo's response about the class-riddled nature of the English society upon which Tolkien based his Shire is a good point. It reminds me of a book I read as a youngster about young Victoria, someday queen and empress. Her tutors had been forbifdden to tell her where she stood in line to the throne but as she was filling out, at the age of 11, her personal family tree upon the death of her uncle George (the IV), and writing in Uncle William now as William IV, she asked her tutor how she should fill out heir apparent. At that point, her tutor broke with his instructions and informed her to write in her own name. What a welcome to puberty that must have been. Yet who outside the British nobility and aristocracy kept family geneologies? In many Protestant families, family Bibles were used to record marriages, births, deaths--and how fitting, considering how often "begats" form the record of the early books of the Bible. Yet I don't think the record of family histories is so easily traced for the lower classes. Yet kinship is a fascinating topic, for that is essentially what geneologies trace. And kinship became a focus of formal study only in the late Victorian era and was predominant in anthropology in the early twentieth century, when Tolkien was himself an academic involved in, if one may say, the geneology of languages. Certainly his own created languages display an interest in language trees. For anthropology of the early twentieth century, studying kinship systems was limited to studying early cultures, not the so-called modern Western cultures. So study was focussed on such societies as the various Aboriginal tribes of North America, Inuit groups in the north, south Pacific societies, and some African and Australian groups. Was Tolkien influenced by this focus on so called "primitive" cultures to give his hobbits an extensive kinship system, as a way of differentiating them from the elevated societies of elves? If so, he does not really give us much sense of what obligations this kinship created, of what obligations were involved in the organising of society this way. We know that Bilbo adopted his nephew Frodo upon the death of Frodo's parents. And we know something about the Sackville-Baggins' view of the kinship, which seems to have developed through extensive intermarriage. But we aren't really sure if degrees of kinship are related to inheritance or succession or how they created, if at all, patterns of behaviour in The Shire. In a recent post (which I don't have time to find at the moment), Squatter of Amon Rudh suggested that the hobbits were a faulty society which had forgotten their mythological origins, a form of learning and history not forgotten in Gondor. If one accepts this valuation, it does seem that the hobbits' interest in family trees is regarded as a petty learning. Yet we do know how Arwen was related to Aragorn and that she was lost to history upon her death--having chosen mortal men. The elven kinship seems clearly related to inheritance and succession and we don't know if the non-ruling elven families had the same interest in family trees that hobbit families had. So, was Tolkien merely borrowing the anthropological focus on indigenous cultures to characterise his hobbits? Or was something more involved, something which would prompt a Frodo to accept an obligation to preserve the group?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#4 |
Shade with a Blade
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correct spelling: genealogy
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Stories and songs. |
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#5 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Oops!
![]() Thanks to all who have added their thoughts to the discussion - I very much enjoy reading them. Selmo brings in an important British cultural aspect which is quite relevant. Interesting thought on philosophical depth, Legate! ![]() Thanks for the cultural and anthropological comparisons, Bb - lots of food for thought there. Ibrîn, that's a very good quote on the Gondorian relationship to genealogies. Your thoughts on the connection between family trees and immortality are fascinating. Legate carries on what the two of you began, reflections on Elves and family history. It is interesting to realize that their ancestors were often still alive! I wonder, are family trees only interesting when the people listed on them are dead and gone? Selmo, your last thought is quote practical - we know how much easier it is to keep track of historical (and faux-historical) characters when we have a written family tree on which to locate them. I'm very much enjoying all of the contributions here!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#6 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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It seems to me genealogy is important amongst all the free peoples of Middle Earth, Elves included. Ibrin has already noted how much lineage seem to matter for the ex-Numenorians, with the dogmatic principles regarding the succession to the throne as the obvious example. When Eärnur was lost and Mardil took over the governance, his Stewardship became inheritable, but despite the passing of more than a thousand years they never ascended the throne, which is remarkable and I would be surprised if a real-life parallel to this could be found.
As for the Elves, I suppose the formal study of genealogy is less needed, as has been noted, since they are immortal within the limitations of Arda, and since most of their ancestors still exist, in Middle Earth or in the West. Their memory is also near flawless, and as the mind of most Elves seem to linger in the past, their family history would be lucid without the need for any formal, academic study. Lineage and Kinship seem to matter as much to them as it does to the Numenorians though. Once again, the obvious example is the succession order. One would think Elrond should be entitled to the High Kingship of Noldor (something more than just a formal title, I'd say) being a direct descendant of Finwe, but I suppose he isn't considered because he isn't a descendant father to father (His grandmother Idril, daughter of Turgon, once High King, being the missing link). Note also that Gildor introduces himself to the Hobbits as "Gildor Inglorin of the house of Finrod", indicating that kinship is a big deal also to Elves. When Elrond speaks of Frodo, he is also "Frodo, son of Drogo". If lineage mattered little to Elves, he would not name him like this, I believe. There are other examples I can think of but I will leave it as this for the moment.
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#7 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Selmo's probably right. Tolkien created them so he probably thought he might as well pop them into the books as well, as they'd be as useful to the reader as to the writer - and hands up all those who have had a go at writing fantasy and have drawn up family trees. Heh, I bet most people have - along with that other staple, drawing a map (which is something else Bilbo liked).
Though it's not quite as poetic a reason for having them, I'll admit. I happen to think Hobbits maintained records of ancestry mostly for purposes of determining inheritance, though that doesn't stop it from being a fascinating pastime to look up who they may be related to and so on... However, genealogy was an important area of study for the upper classes, as lineage determined not just inheritance of fortunes but of nations - take a look at the family trees descending from Edward III ![]() These days genealogy is an absorbing pastime enjoyed by people from all sorts of backgrounds, and I like to think this is in part due to how families are now spread out on a national and global scale and yet people still like to have some sense of roots, which they hope to find through searching their ancestry. I think in particular it affects those who live in 'colonised' countries like the USA and Canada as even though families may have been there for centuries, it's always intriguing to think of how/why they got there in the first place. Would ordianry Elves need to maintain family trees? After all, they could just go and ask their great-great-aunt, couldn't they? ![]()
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#8 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Quote:
Well, cultures the world over used genealogies to determine not only inheritance but to define the limits of incest--who could marry who. Given the fecunity of hobbits, this probably was also a valuable function. ![]() The Gondorian attitude is clearly more political than the attitude in The Shire, which to me still seems to harken back more to aboriginal cultures. For instance, we have the example of Gollem/Smeagol's branch of the hobbits, which apparently is (was?) matriarchial and used shunning as a form of communal punishment, which was (is?) used by religious groups to condemn proscribed behaviours whereas Gondor seems to be more legalistic. Perhaps this is simply because of the role of the Stewardship, which takes central focus on Gondor, and we hear little about other families. Hobbits seem to be a form of social or cultural organisation that is still largely based on the extended family rather than the nuclear family. Of course, it still didn't stop denizens of The Shire from typecasting families, such as the Tooks. At the very least, the family trees in The Shire suggest a conservative culture. Is anyone very conversant in kinship in Viking/Scandinavian cultures? All I know is the prevalent use of patronymics rather than surnames.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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I think it might perhaps be a bit of both, although I'm most inclined to think that Tolkien was attempting to make the Hobbits the "most English" of the peoples of Middle-earth. Genealogy appears to be a pastime of the mortals rather than the immortals, no doubt because there are more generations of Hobbits and Men than there are of Elves (and possibly of Dwarves, but being secretive in nature, we know less about them). There are certainly aspects of the importance of lineage among the descendants of the Numenoreans; remember Faramir's comment to Frodo, "Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons." I find it interesting that the tracing of family history is a common interest among the "lowly" Hobbits and the "high" Numenoreans, particularly since it seems a more wholesome pursuit among the Hobbits. The Men of Gondor seem to have made it into something not exactly twisted, but also not quite healthy. In the Hobbits, it feels more like a connection to life, remembering all your relatives as part of one large family. And among the Numenoreans, it feels like a preoccupation with death and an attempt to gain some kind of immortality, in memory if not in the flesh. I often think that the people I know who are genealogy buffs are like the Numenoreans, searching for the nobility of their ancestors so that they can become a part of a family tree that will never die, since they themselves will, and fear becoming forgotton.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#10 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Wow, Ibri, it does not allow me to give you a reputation right now, so let me say it just here that I find what you said here very well-thought and very well said, and I would agree with what you say here about both the Hobbits and the Númenoreans (or Men in general, with the kind of "wish to preserve immortality by setting their name into a part of something", either history or inscribing it into stone somewhere. Hey, do not - or did not, maybe? Not as much anymore nowadays? - humans actually do that always, trying to find themselves immortality as part of something that transcends them, a history of a noble family, or a history of a country, a history of a movement?). The only question here would be - how do the Elves fit into the picture? What role does genealogy play among their kind? Except for the status of e.g. inheriting the title of the King of Noldor, there seems not to be much point in that. So, for myself, I would say that the Elves, except for when it comes to inheriting such a title, would actually have little interest for the genealogy themselves, neither of their own (since they could as well just remember it anyway, who is whose cousin, with their long lifespan, even if it had any high importance which I somehow doubt) nor of any other peoples (simply as, said with Lindir, "they have more important matters on their hands"). Maybe with the slight exception of following the lineage of Lúthien, which, however, was just a single and special case. But otherwise, probably just this High King of Noldor heritage and such.
Anyway I still think it is kind of weird for the Elves to have any hierarchy of nobility (an inherited one, the more) in their society at all. But that would be for a different topic.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
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Another thought on the importance of Genealogies:
Perhaps Tolkien first created genealogies for the First Age and earlier simply as a writers tool to help him keep track of who was who among the large number of characters. Were they ever intended for publicatuion? Having got into the habit he just carried on when he came to write LoTR. Having the family trees avaiable, perhaps making Hobbits obsesive about family connections was just an afterthought on Tolkien's part, to add a little more colour to Hobbit society. . |
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#13 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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I will also say that, from personal experience, living in a very small town in the American South, that who you are related to matters to other people. I am not from this town or county - work brought me here and I am, thus, an outsider. People here are always asking me who my "kin people" are and where they (and I) are from. They care. Rural societies have not changed much in that regard. Genealogy is how you keep track of that. |
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#14 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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The Shire Hobbits, being such a closed community, would naturally have been the same way. That's also evidenced in Bree, where the Underhills from Staddle were convinced Frodo was a relative, and took him to heart as such.
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#15 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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Not only that but in a small community, as the communities of The Shire no doubt were, the same families would have known one another, intermarried with each other, and done business with each other for generations.
We're talking hundreds of years here. In a society with few (if any) written laws, no real government, and relatively low populations, those family histories and relationships would matter A LOT. |
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#16 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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Quote:
An excellent example is the Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker character in Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake". Although his family has resided in the environs of Dublin for well over 1200 years, his surname is of Danish derivation and recalls the Viking invasion of Ireland; thus, Earwicker is accused of "Scandiknavery".
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