Elwe Singollo

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I do not fail to see the irony here. Yet there are differences too. Thingol did not go to Manwe's throne on Taniquetil to proclaim that no power in the world could keep him from the treasure he desired.

Haha. Point taken. Though I would quibble that Thingol would have declared it before Yavanna. I'm totally fascinated with Melian and Thingol's inequality on the terms of gender role-reversal:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I do not think that it makes his leadership any less, but I do think that it makes him less great if he solely relies upon the power of others to protect his kingdom. What great deeds has Thingol ever done on the battlefield to earn the rank as a great king (and I truly am asking that as a question not as a rhetorical question)? If a king does not fight, especially in those days, for his people what right does he have to lead them?

I would personally never argue that Thingol was a poor king because he didn't physically fight for his people: but I agree that Tolkien places emphasis on heroism based on battle. Finrod, who died defending Beren from Sauron, was described as the "fairest and most beloved of the children of Finwe," because he went out of his way to aid a near-hopeless quest. Fingolfin, who fought Morgoth in single combat, was the "most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old," and not just the Noldor.

The point about Thingol is that he's not heroic, not by any standard. He was wise, proud, protective of his people, ostensibly well-intentioned, and thoughtful, but not heroic. His death, unlike that of most of the Elven-kings, makes no mention of his greatness: only that he was the last living Elf in Middlearth to have seen the light of the Trees. I hate to marginalize Thingol as a symbol, but... he does a much better job representing the dying ideals of the perfect Middlearth than a progressive movement towards unity between the races of Elves, Men, and Dwarves.

[Galin]

The later version of the death of Thingol was never written though, and it was, it appears, possibly to be in a battle → the bare bones (noted by JRRT) seem to be that Thingol was to be lured outside, or induced to go to war beyond his borders, and slain in some manner by Dwarves.

In the very early long prose tale Tinwelint was ambushed while hunting (while resting during a hunt), and Mablung and the King fell side by side after a long bitter fight. Naugladur swept off the king's head after he was dead, for it was said he would not dare to go near Tinwelint's sword nor Mablung's axe (an earlier version states that the King was borne down by numbers and then slain by Naugladur). A direction for a seemingly new detail was that the Nauglafring caught in bushes and held the King.

Anyway (alas again) there's no later long prose version of Thingol's death, and even Quenta Silmarillion and the Annals are lacking here with respect to updated material.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Heh. And, besides Galin's new example, um... as I was looking back at "Of the Sindar" I found the short section where Thingol amasses an army and leaves Doriath to come to the aid of Denethor and the Elves of Ossiriand. The text specifically says "Bitterly his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps...." Then, after realizing that Denethor was dead and that there was no more help for the Green-elves, Thingol withdrew his forces to Menegroth and had Melian put out her Girdle to protect Doriath.

Read it whatever way you want (Thingol himself slew heaps of Orcs, or his men did), the suggestion is obvious: Thingol once tried the warlike way, but was too much of a pragmatist to continue it.

Going to prove only one thing: I need to read more closely before I post. Kthxbai.

[Eol Galvorn]

I believe, at least in the Silm, that Thingol represents somewhat of an opposition to the thinking of the kings of the Noldor. In war the Sindar were considerably less skilled than the Noldor, which can be seen by the state that Beleraind is in when the Noldor first arrive. He knows his forces are no match for the armies of Angband in open war, thus he takes a more conservative approach. It is his prerogative to preserve what he already has, rather than conquest for more (at least until it comes to the Silmaril itself, which I don't think he ever seriously intended to lay hands on.)
Those elf kings most honored of the first age followed his precedent by creating their own Hidden Kingdoms, Gondolin and Nargothrond, the later of which is directly inspired by Menengroth. It's as if Turgon and Felagund thought Thingol (as apposed to the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin) was the wisest of kings, at least so far as defending their people against the coming onslaught of the north.
Is the greatness of a king judged wholly by his prowess on the battlefield or the conquest over the enemies of his people, or is his greatness found in his love and defense of his people against strife, and preservation of their culture in the face of invasion (by both the forces of Angband and the Noldor, but also the migration of men?)