Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

(Oh and I guess I should clear up "balogna" see that is actually a kind of meat for sandwhiches/subs, I meant "baloney" as I didn't buy it, it didn't match up...etc. They are pronounced the same and I just got them confused. My bad...and I also realized that the deli meat is spelled "bologna" anyway. )

"baloney" actually does have its origin in bologna sausage so Mr 88 was actually on the mark - in theory (this is a purely a note on diachronic linguistics not on the accuracy of the term as used in context).

You may have heard that you can eat every part of a pig save the squeak ... originally it was scraps fat and the more obscure parts of the pig that were ground up to make bologna sausages (tofu anyone?) hence the metaphoric use of baloney to mean nonsense. Baloney is, as has been pointed out a phonetic spelling of bologna.

[A Little Green]

Now I'm back again, hello Nerwen (in case you are still around)! I was kind of hoping to see more than one post and one mod-linguistics post. Gah. It seems everyone except me and Nerwen is working or sleeping or just really boring. I'll try to find something useful to do about the game.

[Nerwen]

I'm here... looks like it's just you and me (...and the helpful ghost of Mithalwen...)

I said I was going to look at Nogrod and Boromir 88. I'm listing everything they've said to and about each other in three parts. I'll comment after that.

Day One, Part One (Election Day).

#87.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I concede that as a point in your column, a person voting for a rep will hold different information than a rep casting a vote.

"there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves~Nogrod"

I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.

[rest of the post is a reply to Legate and Lommy.]

#127.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[part of a much longer post]
Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

#150.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[first sentence is a reply to Lommy]
When you signed up for this were you really expecting something different?

"Or maybe quietness is not the right factor but the kind of carefulness of some of us around. If we pick them as representatives they will have to take a stand.~Nogrod"

Hmm interesting...you should probably know by now that whether I'm a representative or not I'm going to be doing some heavy lobbying during the 2nd 24-hour period. I would also expect that from Legate, the phantom, and any of the other more vocal players. I can certainly imagine a quiet wolf, who is not a representative, slipping under the radar even more so then they would if we all just had 1 vote. In this way, it would make the less talkative bunch take a stand, and voice their suspects.

However, I don't fully like move for playing carefully and cautiously. Look, I take risks, that's what you're going to get from me, and if I'm a rep, that's what you're going to see. I don't think making somebody a rep will change their style a great deal, if at all. All it would really do is get a concrete vote out of them. But while the voting in the game will be different, I don't think the dynamics are going to change as dramatically as what some of you are making it out to be. The bottom-line is we have lots of well-honed WW people in this village, and it's going to come down to the same situations, do we have some quiet wolves who want to stay out of the spotlight, or some bold one's who like attention, or in all probability both?

I don't like playing it safe, and I've always found people who try to play it safe suspicious. Kath, Brinn, Rune, would make great reps, if they're innocent. The phantom, Legate, Nogrod, also would be great reps if they're innocent. See the point? Just because we have a different voting system now doesn't mean it's going to change someone's ability just by slapping on the "Representative" title.

#165.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[replying to phantom] I disagree, not in the way that it's wrong, but I would like to see that someone is not considered a viable lynch by the other representatives, solely for that fact that said person is a representative. Because, I would bet at least once in this village, wolves would elect one of their mates as a rep.

I think we're un-needlessly complicating the "Who I want as a rep" situation. I don't like the idea of putting a suspected/possible wolf as a rep, for the purpose of getting a concrete vote out of them. Nogrod, if you're not a wolf, I know you won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed, and if you are a wolf, you still won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed.

What's the reward here? I want someone who I trust is innocent, as well as someone who will represent my voice. That simple. We have an advantage in numbers, and the advantage of not allowing the wolves get control of who gets lynched. Yes, ordo's will make mistakes, but at least I know they mean for the best. Because the fact is, as hard as we could try to not get a wolf in as a rep, it's going to happen, period. That doesn't mean we should help them out and hand them the reigns.

[rest is asking whether the phantom will vote for him.]

#187.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[part of a longer post, where he votes Ilya as rep.]
- Boro being sensible but being not sure about him. But clearly, lynching him on Day1 would be very bad playing indeed.

#196.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[part of a longer post.]
On Nogrod...it struck me odd at first why he wants to advocate the less-loud villagers as representatives, considering he usually goes after them. But, now it looks like an attempt to get more involvement out of the quieter ones. I just don't think it's going to work, because I don't think being a rep will change anyone's style. Also, if Nogrod can not be a representative, it could be an attempt to keep the power out of people who could potentially be dangerous for a wolf-Nogrod. What is Nogrod really up to? Care to answer?

EDIT: fixed quotes.

[Boromir88]

You treat him like a known innocent, and I'd love to know why.~Greenie

If I told you, I'd have to kill you. Ok, maybe not, but if I told you my reason I doubt you'd like it...I'd be getting into all kinds of history - but anyway, I don't see why a village wouldn't want an innocent tp and I won't let my paranoia that tp is an evil wolf manipulating everyone get in the way, at least not yet.

Or, if you want another reason, although probably not so good of a one, if tp was a wolf I would have been dead yesterday with how many seer hints I was dropping off. And even if someone wants to say, well maybe a wolf-tp didn't fall for it, tp would in no way have killed McCaber. None, end of story, either accept it or keep doubting it, doesn't bother me, but I'm not going to waste my time.

If we are talking about the "experienced veterans" click, this is certainly a good example. Why ask only phantom, why not ask the other four as well? Sorry, I just tend not to like this kind of phrasing.

And I don't like your editting job, keep reading, tp and I were the only one's around at the deadline. I was asking about his plan of action with the rep voting.

[Nerwen]

Day One Part Two (Lynching Day!)
#271

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[on Nogrod's vote for Ilya]
as I noted, if a wolf-Nogrod can't become a rep, it could be an attempt to keep power out of other vocal players who could be trouble for him. Also, it could be a way to get the wolves more involved in the voting, and he's simply masking it under the umbrella of "trying to get more info" from people.

Anyway, unless Nogrod, you want to tell me a secret you're hiding, you won't be getting my vote. I'll say it again...you won't be getting my vote - I want to stress that point, because I won't pull a Legate 180.

[rest of post is asking me and Shasta where we got the idea of a phantom/Legate/Boro triangle]

#375

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's getting just too late once again... so I try to do this quickly.

I have underlined those I will not vote for either thinking them innocent-looking enough or to be too valuable to us if innocents as to lynch them on too weak grounds this early...

Aganzir - argues innocentishly
Boromir88 - looks and feels genuine thus far
Brinniel - looks and feels genuine thus far
Diamond18 - her wish to be a rep and the following inattention to the game speak for innocence although the latter doesn't speak well of her gamer-morale...
Eönwë - a hard one for me everytime I play with him: could go either way
Gil-Galad - the enigma who is more often innocent than not - and gets things right more often than has been granted the honour of
Greenie - the sneaky one, my daughter... I never figure her out and thence am afraid everytime
Gwathagor - could be a wolf, could not be...
Ilya - looks and feels genuine thus far
Legate - I'm a bit worries of that possible pre-planned action but not enough to vote him toDay
Lommy - feels innocentish
Kath - she's not suspecting me! there must be something wrong in there... or then not; I'm slightly persuaded to wait and see
McCaber - the ultimate submarine: manages to post without no one having a read on him
mormegil - I do not like his recurring points on tp being very different this time...
Nerwen - looks and feels genuine thus far, although I'd love to see her post more
Rune - the enthusiasm of getting to be a representative speaks on his behalf - and the general feeling I get is more that of an ordo
Sally - very hard nut to crack but maybe more innocentish because of the level of her light-heartedness (she was a bit more focused the last time she was a wolf)
Shasta - could be a wolf, could not be...
The Ka - she's always hard for me to read and I tend to suspect her more than not
the phantom - could be a wolf, could not be...

#423

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[part of longer post; the bit I'm quoting is a reply to Nogrod's suspicion of Gwath.]
Gwath, I really think too much is being made out of his vote for Nogrod as a representative. The whole argument really doesn't make sense, maybe someone can explain it here. But, since Gwath gave the reason of choosing Nogrod, because he believed Nogrod would keep the quiet players on their toes, and since Gwath would fall into this category of "quiet" players so far, that makes him look suspicious? Sorry, but am I reading things correctly?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Oh, and so it is clear, I think I'm pretty much down between Legate and Agan. I will look through the stuff on Eonwe, but as far as Gwath, I don't see any reason to vote for him. Yes, Nogrod, that means I'm not buying your argument.

EDIT: x'd with Boro.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

And I don't like your editting job, keep reading, tp and I were the only one's around at the deadline. I was asking about his plan of action with the rep voting.

Ah, I'm sorry, that was pure mistake, then - I didn't realise it was because the two of you were the only ones around. Silly me

What else? I realised I really have nothing to say. I'll be back with some substance, but now I really must start with the essay. (no, I didn't do that last time I said I would. )

[Nerwen]

Day Two, Part One (Election).

#483.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm glad you were able to finish with Nogrod. I've been going through the posts too, but Nogrod is someone I haven't finished yet; he actually reall has been someone I've relatively ignored so far. That's also rather peculiar, Nogrod just hadn't stood out to me as someone important on Day 1. (No offense there Nogrod). Anyway, I decided to take a good look at his last couple posts yesterday, what sticks out to me is his continued pressure on Legate, yet doesn't vote for him, and goes for Gwath instead.

Now before Lommy (or Nogrod for that matter) gets in here and explain all about how Nogrod doesn't like lynching vocal players early on, and ended up going for Gwath, thus he's innocent you see...Going off his posts though it just doesn't make sense.

I agree with tp that in 352, that looks bad, and by Nogrod's admission:

"It seems I have the weightiest reasons to suspect Legate then? But I'm more than reluctant to try him out toDay for the case is more speculative than I'd wish it to be were I to vote someone who could be such an assistance to us."


In 370 he lays out his reasoning against Gwath.

"I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil."

I guestioned this at the end of yesterday, on what was the big deal here, about Gwath's choice for Nogrod? Ok, Gwath says Nog will keep the quiet ones on their toes, Gwath hasn't posted a lot...ya it's contradictory, but talk about a real weak (I would even call bogus) accusation of wolvish-ness.

Then he credits Gwath for questioning the phantom. What is it that teachers like to do now...the compliment sandwhich? This is really good, wow you suck here, but oh this is nice.

In 375 he underlines those who he will not vote for today, one of them is Legate. However, as mentioned above he continues to put pressure on Legate. In 380, right before he says he's got to vote and leave...

"I haven't even read all of your post yet Legate but this cries for spelling it out aloud...

If tp says that if you keep on making that Star Wars stuff he'll be backing you... what do you do? You keep on with it in a striking manner.

That looks suspicious indeed... I need to make the choice in something like fifteen minutes (1.30AM here, waking up call at 6.30) and you didn't make it easier."

Nogrod, pal, this doesn't look good to me. If you said before you would not be voting for Legate, why turn up the heat on him? Why not focus on Gwath or anyone of the 4-5 other people you didn't underline? Also, it's strange that you said the case against Legate was purely speculative, and it made you nervous, but what was the deal about Gwath's representative vote? That looked like more balogna than anything you said about Legate.

And like I said, don't think about feeding me the bull of you not wanting to lynch someone like Legate so early. I bet you wanted the innocent Legate lynched yesterday you see...Although I would also bet you didn't want to get your paws messy.

Before I even post an edit, I'll just say now I've probably cross-posted with tp at least 3 times (Edit: alright I was close - 4 times plus 1 Ilya).

#542.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I managed to peak in during the morning and will have a few comments on something there. Then I'm going to read what has been said after that.

And just fyi I'm sharing the computer with Greenie tonight (RL) so we will be posting in something like turns.

I don't know if you have come to a conclusion about McCaber being killed or not but to me it looks very puzzling indeed. And it makes me wonder. Why not tp? Why not Boro? Why not me? (add any player you think being a major threat to the wolves). There is no ranger so they roam free at Nights. So why not?

So Boro and tp and Lommy / Aganzir... (add your favourite wolf's bane here) are wolves and they let me live to see the other Day (just to attack me... it seems...)? It would sure be in the wolves' interest to get down players who'd threathen them. But they didn't.

And as the suggestion of there being those wolves looks a bit improbable I must think the wolves were actually after a seer. Even if it's Fea's game I'm not just ready to believe that he would have picked tp and Boro as wolves together with Lommy or Agan... or morm / Kath (if it's Fea who picks them)?

[goes on to speculate about whether the wolves thought McCaber was the Seer.

#555.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[replying to the phantom]
You know it as well as I do that neither you or me, or Boro, or Lommy, or... would vote a contributing player out on Day1 unless there was a severe case to be made against that one.

[accuses phantom of being a wolf]

[replying to Boro's criticism of his attack on Gwath.]
But on the Gwath-suspicion. Sadly you left out the real point - or was it on purpose? I kind of remember you used a sig saying something like "for your safety and my sanity read all the thread"!!!

What I said about Gwath was this (talking from the devil's advocate point of view that is): Let's spell it out then...

Think of Gwath as a wolf (take the devil's advocate point of view).

He knows I'm one of the loudest proponents of lynching the enigmatic people out on the first Days as it will get tougher Day by Day and the number of submarines may decide the whole game in the end.

He realises he's one of the possible targets (I've gotten him lynched pretty early a time or two on Day1 or 2).

So what does he think as he sees many people seem to trust me and I might be on my way to being a representative thus adding to his anguish (he is a wolf in this scenario, mind you)?

He makes a decent try by voting me to be his representative so that I would feel good about it and leave him out from my possible list of "lynching the quiets" because he trusted me! This is the point I voted for him, not that it was a contradicition.

Sorry Boro, but I get the feel that you are as well either disparaging my intelligence seriously or you are just throwing things forwards without actually reading the thread. Or then you're a wolf trying to get something on someone who is an innocent but make a pretty bad performance with it.

And I'm having serious hardship in trying to believe any of the possibilities.


And the last thing. You Boro say I'm giving pressure to Legate while voting Gwath - and that makes me suspicious.

I never vote Legate on Day1, neither I vote you, or tp, or Lommy or... unless there is a major case behind the suspicion. You know it. (and if not look up there for the explanation)

But what I'm used to is to kind of give all my last thoughts forwards before I go as I don't know whether I'm alive when the next Day comes. So I pointed to the fact that I suspected Legate for that "doing a Legate 180" and when I saw the Star Wars -thing I thought it noteworthy enough to point it out (I was wrong, yes; but had he been a wolf and I had not pointed to that one, I would have cursed aloud if I had been killed the last Night and Legate had gone on winning the game while I had noticed that little thing but had not voiced it).

I like your "cut the crap" -attitude Boro, but this is not it. Not the least as you were one of those who actually lynched Legate.

Are you trying to whitewash yourself? Turning the attention to others from your own guilt? Couldn't resist lynching an innocent loudmouth who could be on your way? Got a trophy from lynching Legate?

#559. [The Great Balogna Post.]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't believe I left out anything important, I quoted your point about Gwath's contradiction and the devil's advocate line; I'm not going to quote you line by line here Nogrod, I would certainly hate to infringe on any type of copyright. Anyway, I'm not going to dive into this tit-for-tat, you're not reading what I'm saying stuff.

I said your case against Gwath was balogna. Period. And I thought it was very reasonable to ask why you continued to pressure Legate after you said you wouldn't be voting for him. Alright, you like to post your final thoughts before heading out, I know that, and concede it's normal for you. Normal doesn't mean you're not a wolf, and yes I guess that means it doesn't make you one either.

Anyway, I still call your vote for Gwath balogna. So, let me get this devil's advocate thing straight...you assumed if Gwath was a quiet wolf, and he knew you were going after the quiet players, than he would try to win your trust by voting for you as his rep? Also all that not wanting to lynch tp, me, legate...etc on Day 1 that you just love to feed everyone, ok got it. It's still balogna, because you assumed Gwath was a wolf and then carved out a reasoning to fit your assumption.

I'm also well aware that Lommy (and I believe Agan) originally threw out the idea that since McCaber died, they want to scream "Nogrod's a wolf." So, don't lecture me about not reading carefully. I just haven't said anything about it yet, because I wanted to get a response from you, and I can only do one thing at a time here.

I'm getting about as me-focused as the phantom here, because I thought after McCaber's death, crap the wolves are going to be coming after me, as at the end I made a case for why they should kill an innocent McCaber. Virtually, I signed his death warrant there...but really the opposite has happened. Lommy's said it makes me look innocent to her, Agan has voted me as a rep, and they both thought the death would point towards you. So, apparently if you're innocent, you're the one the wolves wanted to set up, or you're a wolf and killed McCaber.

Edit: crossed with Greenie and morm

#587.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Greenie went to sleep and I'm back.

Just the first ones to caught my attention (I really need to look at the thread better!).

Sorry, Boro, I appreciate your gaming a lot. And I'm always delighted to see you in a game I'm going to attend myself. But plese Mr. Boro, when you say my thoughts were "balogna" - whatever it is that word means - you should consider your own ones likewise. Why are you trying to twist this as I quite clearly answered you question that was something you hadn't read about (or had decided to ignore because it did not fit your interests of getting me lynched?)

I was not voting for Gwath because of the "contradictory" nature of his post but because of the possible intention behind it.

And I thought it a better idea than lynching Legate. Unlike you did...

Absolutely. As you said yourself. So why all the hassle? Because you thought you could get me lynched with it but had to concede it was not a case after all, right? Mr. smooth wolf?

You are doing the very same thing Boro! You are looking at me with eyes keen seeing wolfy-moves in my posts like I did with Gwath yesterDay. So you can't kind of claim you are on the high-ground you seem to be trying to reach here... Indeed this makes me look at you even more suspiciously as I know that my vote was for keeping the informative players around while you decided to let the village be without one of it's most sharp-eyed players who could turn the tables...

So whose case was a "balogna"? No one has yet called you for it, has anyone?

Well, I'm calling you now. Why did you vote Legate?
(you may have answered this already and then I apologise and will look at your answer from there... I will get reading all said toDay after I stop writing this)

X and Y said A is a wolf because of B. So don't lecture about me saying A is a wolf! I have not said anything on the matter!"
(and add B being like "s/he has used yellow socks before or s/he used the word "blue" earlier as well...")

You cared to echo their points, right? That comes about even with saying it yourself, doesn't it?

That is sneaky! And bad. Sorry Boro, I thought you'd perform better... But hiding behind te back of the two ladies ius just... bad.


So if you're an innocent, just check back on yourself. You are basically just doing the things you're accusing me of doing Boro and that's bad playing indeed. If you're evil, well, then we have to get you lynched sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure what to think of you.

I might vote you as a representative just to check your cards.


PS. Talking about paranoid wolves, just read this...
So you wrote McCaber to his death? Was that a confession indeed, muddied by the "opposite happened" -thing? I mean were you an innocent why should you say something like that no one had seen or mentioned (Well I have not seen all of toDay)?

Bad conscience knocking on the door that is not a Heaven? ?

#592.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

"I was not voting for Gwath because of the "contradictory" nature of his post but because of the possible intention behind it.~Nogrod"

Yet in your post (370) laying out your reasoning against Gwath...
"I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil."~Nogrod

Do I have to do an underline job like Shasta? You're connecting his contradictory vote with the reason Gwath could be deemed evil (that is what the word "and" does).

"You are doing the very same thing Boro!"~Nogrod

I already said I'm a hypocrite.

"Well, I'm calling you now. Why did you vote Legate?"~Nogrod

You cared to echo their points, right? That comes about even with saying it yourself, doesn't it?

Read my posts yesterday and you'll find out...or better yet read why Legate didn't want to make me a rep, he thought I would vote for him, he was right. Someone has to go, I made the wrong choice. I mean no offense to Legate, but it was day 1 and his death isn't a game-breaker. Are you confident a Gwath lynching would have turned up a different result?

"X and Y said A is a wolf because of B. So don't lecture about me saying A is a wolf! I have not said anything on the matter!"
(and add B being like "s/he has used yellow socks before or s/he used the word "blue" earlier as well...") "~Nogrod

I'm not sure why you're trying to alienate me on this one, when I brought it up as a possible reason that could point to your innocence. I said McCaber's death could have been an attempt at a set-up, with Lommy and Agan both saying it points to you. And as I said, I fully intend, and still do, plan to pursue that possibility, but I wanted to hear your response to my accusations first.

Edit: crossed with Brinn

#594.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Like I said, we would have changes in the representatives...

Now why don't you like tp any more?


Anyway, I'm giving Boro a third vote even if parts of toDay are just black areas to me as I had no time to read them all. I'll try to catch up tomorrow as it's now 3AM here... Happily we have these 48 hour-Days!

But I really want to see what Boro does with the power invested on him on that scale... even if it narrows down the number of the representatives.
(Think of the game balance indeed! Seven "two-voters" are the happiest place for the wolves qualified... after not being a representative in the first place, that is)

I don't trust him at all at this moment but I want to check his cards whatever it leads to.

++ Boro for representative

This Day has shown how this game works.

Lommy for Nerwen
Ner for Lommy
Agan for Boro
morm for Agan
KA for Lommy (2)
Green for morm
Eonwe for Lommy (3)
Rune for morm (2)
Kath for Boro (2)
Shasta for Nerwen (2)
Nogrod for Boro (3)


EDIt: X'd with Boro x2

EDIT: fixed stuff.

[Boromir88]

Nerwen, did you know everytime you quote me you will be charged 2,000 wight-bucks?

Greenie, no problem. You're absolutely right that it's good to question, as you all should be doing. It might seem like when I say things I'm confident and a bit cocksure, but in truth I'm not ( ::don't let anyone else know:: ). When I step in though, I don't footsie around, I go full metal jacket, which sometimes I do very well, and other times I look like an idiot. One time morm made me eat a sock and just recently Mac made me cut myself and pour lemon juice on it, because I made "sure" statements that ended up being 100% wrong. So, I definitely should be questioned, it keeps me in line, when I am not challenged I get like a rampaging baboon, and that is self-destructive.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nerwen, did you know everytime you quote me you will be charged 2,000 wight-bucks?

Is that by the post, or by the sentence?

EDIT: repeated word.

[Nerwen]

Comments.

Well firstly, I 'd better apologize for filling up the thread with those epic posts. I just think it's better to have the quotes at hand for everyone to see, rather than making you all rely on my summary.

Now, I hadn't expected anything to jump out at me, and it didn't, not really. They had very little to do with each other the first few days, and even the first part of toDay, the overwhelming majority of Boro's interactions were with the phantom. (Bear in mind, though, that packmates may try to avoid being associated with each other.)

Some of their Day One comments could be read as the well-known "suspect-defend" tactic, while Boro at #271 even throws in "I suspect you... but I won't lynch you".

On the other hand, the quarrel toDay looks pretty genuine, and Boro makes some good points against Nogrod (even if he did confuse us all with his balogna). Which makes Nogrod's vote for him all the more puzzling.

Conclusion: no good evidence of a link between Boro and Nogrod... Their behaviour doesn't entirely rule it out either, but it's not what I'd call a "case".

So... fairly inconclusive. Well, it had to be done.

EDIT" X'd with Boro.