Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nerwen, did you know everytime you quote me you will be charged 2,000 wight-bucks?

Is that by the post, or by the sentence?

EDIT: repeated word.

[Aganzir]

Ouch.

Sorry. Getting home in the morning took me about six hours longer than I had thought it would.

Off to catch up with things now (it's going to take a long time), but the good thing is it's weekend so I can actually be around a bit longer tonight.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Ilya

It was safe, which I guess is why it looks wolfish. I would also propose it looks like a newbie who only wants to stay in the game long enough until she can get the hang of it, and then start alienating people, but I can't decide for you.

Somehow I don't like the way you're playing the newbie card. It looks as if you were trying to avoid implying you're new and therefore want to stay alive. Now saying it would not be that bad a thing, but trying not to say it although meaning it because of thinking it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Agan, a "charismatic wolf" would be someone who has a bead on the general suspicions of the reps and would be able to do exactly what Boro did to me yesterday: cast a vote with authority, and convince me to jump on the bandwagon.

What I haven't figured out is what you meant by calling for a method of empowering reps so a charismatic wolf wouldn't get a chance to rule them. What kind of method would you suggest?

Originally Posted by Nog

So how come you tp think that if I act in the same way as you do it makes me look suspicious? What does it say of you?

As might have been noticed by now, I am one of those looking for persons who are behaving or thinking like I could as a wolf, and I don't think it's suspicious that other people try to notice it as well.

Originally Posted by Nog

And it would be an insult if you were an innocent thinking me a possible wolf with this. What are you up to?

I found this remark suspicious (just like I didn't like how Nerwen was offended by morm's suggestion she was playing a confused wolf). Mostly because they both were expressed so strongly. Why should anyone be insulted if someone doesn't seem to think they are as intelligent, cunning, pretty, whatever, they themselves think they are?

Originally Posted by Greenie

Somehow you seem more touchy and much quicker to retaliate to anything that even mildly concerns you.

Better get used to it since I have found it a nice way to play.
And as for categories, if I label people either as Guilty, Innocent, or Neither, do you think it means there are people I consider neither guilty nor innocent? Although the names be like that, it's basically just Suspicious, Not suspicious, and Dunno. If you have three categories and I am in the worst one, I think I have a reason to assume I am suspected. However the thing which caught my eye was that just because I no longer give you innocent vibes, I become worrying. Am I otherwise so suspicious that just those innocent vibes you couldn't put your finger on made you think I was innocent, and now that you don't get them anymore, you're worried about me instead of not knowing what to think of me?
I hope that question made more sense now than in my last post, where it wasn't quite clear.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Just for change, please elaborate on why exactly I am on your suspicion list.

I am happy to oblige (ie read through your posts & summarize them) at some point, although not quite now. However, you eventually ended up being there because of your reasons to be worried about me and the lack of explanations for them.
There are people I'm more interested in than you right now, so you have to wait.

Originally Posted by Boro

and they both thought the death would point towards you.

I can't say I really thought Cab's death would point towards Nog - it was only my gut reaction which I probably wouldn't even have mentioned if not for Lommy sharing it, too.

Originally Posted by Ka

That kill would be too close for comfort for our wolves, since I’m guessing they have at least one at the loudspeaker, one on the floor passing out comments, and the rest hiding out in different voting groups.

Do you have any specific reason to think so?
I've been repeating this to the point of exhaustion in the games I've played, but I don't think it's ever that simple, and I find little use in speculation.

Originally Posted by Ilya

When he voted for Brinn, he said a lot things about her being reason and trustworthly and then:
Quote:...and because she probably won't be the center of attention.

I don't consider agreeing with Brinn on one issue and saying she's usually trustworthy a lot of things. I also think I made it quite clear why I didn't want my rep to be the centre of attention: I'd rather there were several weak reps than a few strong ones. My reasoning included the idea of centres of attention getting many rep votes, which turned out a bit otherwise in the end, though.

Originally Posted by Rune

Anyways this seems to be Aganzir’s style and I must say it annoys me a great deal.

Yeah, it's my style for now. I bet you're not the only person whom it annoys, but that's the way of finding the wolves I'm the most comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So why didn't you stand out from the crowd? Why didn't you try to lynch someone you really thought was a wolf? Here you are admitting to bandwaggoning without a good reason. At least you amit it. or maybe you are just putting it out in the open so that people say that and dpn't think that you're hiding something.

The problem was that there was no one I really thought was a wolf. Besides, being the first to cast a vote against someone can hardly be called bandwagoning. I don't mind Legate's death, but the way it happened - random suspicions coming up, and he receiving almost all the votes in the end.

Originally Posted by Rune

We can all agree that Nogrod have more experience than McCabber, but that was not what he said. . . He said he was more of a threat to the wolves that McCabber, these things are not the same.

Well if you were wondering whether to trust more a person who made really good big cases against people or one who popped in to say "X looks weird... I'll tell more later," which one would you choose? If by saying a threat to the wolves you mean a player who's good at spotting wolves, it's difficult to make a difference between them, but if you mean one who can more easily convince others to think the way s/he does, I think it's justified to call Nog a greater threat than Cab.

Originally Posted by Ilya

However, I do not like the implication she made about a rep not voting and irresponsibility today (521). These aren't sacred offices or anything but reps do have an obligation. As to throwaway votes, it's not a bad way for a shy wolf to act - everything's all tied up, so I'm just gonna go Nader. Or, you know, the phantom and his brand of jokery. I guess, in short, voting is important, and anyone who says otherwise bothers me.

I am sure you are aware that the origins of that rep not voting talk are in a post of mine on day 1 where I treated the idea of possible filibustering when I want to go to sleep pretty harshly, which Lommy found irresponsible and outrageous.
My personal opinion is that a rep should vote, but for the sake of argument I can't help wondering how deciding not to vote would be any different from throwing away one's vote. And actually throwaway votes aren't that good a way for a wolf, since they will be looked at in every case.

While writing this post I was reminded by my stomach that I haven't eaten anything today, except for a loaf of bread in the morning. Therefore I'm planning to have something to eat now. Then I could maybe try to complete my Ilya case and take that look at Nerwen's posts I was planning to.

[Ilya]

I am sure you are aware that the origins of that rep not voting talk are in a post of mine on day 1 where I treated the idea of possible filibustering when I want to go to sleep pretty harshly, which Lommy found irresponsible and outrageous.
My personal opinion is that a rep should vote, but for the sake of argument I can't help wondering how deciding not to vote would be any different from throwing away one's vote. And actually throwaway votes aren't that good a way for a wolf, since they will be looked at in every case.

Coolbeans. I get that you were grouchy and by "bothered" I didn't mean in a suspicious way. Civic indifference is just a pet peeve of mine.

Somehow I don't like the way you're playing the newbie card. It looks as if you were trying to avoid implying you're new and therefore want to stay alive. Now saying it would not be that bad a thing, but trying not to say it although meaning it because of thinking it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it.

Ok, let's see if I can follow this. I avoided saying I was new Day 1 - check, thought if I brought it up it would be seen as too cloying. You're quite right in pointing out that saying it wouldn't be a bad thing - it's true, after all. That was a mistake on my part. "But trying not to say it although meaning it because of it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it." Dude, help me untangle that clause. What is "it"? If you're worried that I flip-flopped on how to handle my lack of experience, well, yeah, I did. Be worried, I guess.

I'll be about in a little bit. I'm going to have a look at morm's stuff today since I didn't get to him last night.

[Boromir88]

Well if you were wondering whether to trust more a person who made really good big cases against people or one who popped in to say "X looks weird... I'll tell more later," which one would you choose? If by saying a threat to the wolves you mean a player who's good at spotting wolves, it's difficult to make a difference between them, but if you mean one who can more easily convince others to think the way s/he does, I think it's justified to call Nog a greater threat than Cab.~Agan

Agan you're right.

I don't know what you mean by a "good" case, but of course if one never says anything else than "this person is suspicous" then you are little threat. I just want to point out that we where on day 1, there was plenty of time for McCabber to come good and on day 1 extensive cases are clearly overkill and seldom better than a gut feeling.

You are not a threat to the wolves if you convince people about your case and you are wrong. . .and now we have returned to an earlier stage of this discusion: Are more experienced players better at catching wolves.

Rune you're right.

Now can you please both move on?

"But trying not to say it although meaning it because of it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it." Dude, help me untangle that clause. What is "it"? If you're worried that I flip-flopped on how to handle my lack of experience, well, yeah, I did. Be worried, I guess.~Ilya

Playing the newbie card is...say you're a wolf, but you're new to WWing, and you use your newbie status to your advantage by pretty much saying "Hey, I'm a newbie, I don't know what's going on."

I believe what Agan was trying to get at is saying it looks like you're trying to play the newbie card, but that would be looked at as suspicious, so you're attempting to imply it...or in other words she's doubting your use of your newbie status as meaning you're an innocent trying to get the feel for things.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't know what you mean by a "good" case, but of course if one never says anything else than "this person is suspicous" then you are little threat. I just want to point out that we where on day 1, there was plenty of time for McCabber to come good and on day 1 extensive cases are clearly overkill and seldom better than a gut feeling.

By good case I meant a case which has valid points against someone and is likely to change other players' opinions. And although there was plenty of time, I don't think Cab's a player who's into making lengthy cases.
I think a player who's capable of swaying the public opinion is a threat to the wolves even if s/he was wrong at times.

Originally Posted by Ilya

"But trying not to say it although meaning it because of it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it." Dude, help me untangle that clause. What is "it"? If you're worried that I flip-flopped on how to handle my lack of experience, well, yeah, I did. Be worried, I guess.

Whoa, I didn't realise I had created such a monster of a sentence. What I mean is, trying to avoid saying straight that you are new, although you make it quite clear in a more subtle way, looks suspicious to me. And it looks like you were trying to do just that. And it looks suspicious because you're trying to excuse your participating in a bandwagon (or any other suspicious thing you might do) by saying you're just a newbie.

However, there was a question you didn't answer.

What I haven't figured out is what you meant by calling for a method of empowering reps so a charismatic wolf wouldn't get a chance to rule them. What kind of method would you suggest?

edit: xed with Boro. Yeah I'm fine with moving on.

[Eönwë]

It appears I just closed a tab with my almost finished long post on it. I seems I'll have to redo it.

[the phantom]

I've seen a couple of comments referring to Ilya's vote as a bandwagon vote, and I felt that I should point out that it wasn't.

Legate had three votes. Eonwe and Gwath each had one.

There were only two Reps left to vote. (Ilya and I)

Therefore the only way our votes could have resulted in an outcome is if we both agreed to vote either Eonwe or Gwath and double lynch them along with Legate.

First- there was no chance of that (I wouldn't have agreed to it). Second, it wouldn't have been a good idea in the first place.

So, the conclusion-

Both Ilya and I had no true chance to vote yesterday, for the actions of the voters who came before us rendered our votes useless.

Say what you wish about her playing the "Newbie card". You could be right. But I see no reason to think about her vote. She didn't actually vote.

[Aganzir]

Hmm you're right phantom (and now it's me who should be blamed for not checking the facts before accusing ). However, Ilya seemed to make it quite clear that Legate was her main candidate.

Anyway I want a cup of tea now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boro in #602

You mean your answer to Gwath's contradictory vote? I stubbornly re-made it because you're answer to it was hogwash.

Balogna or hogwash, I still think you're grasping at straws here and yes, I still do wonder why. Gwath contradicting was the minor issue, the thought of his motives behind that contradiction were the major issue. Fullstop.

I'm going to end this debate on my half right here with that.

Originally Posted by Boro

This is strangely parroting Lommy and Agan from yesterday.

Indeed.

To other matters then, reading the thread forwards....


The fact that Gil didn't vote for a representative (or actually post other than that short row with Shasta) looks like he's an innocent. I suggest he should not be lynched. Had he a role he would have been a lot more engaged says my experience with him.

Hah, figure this: Nogrod is saying we should leave a submarine alive on the first Days!

But really, he doesn't have a role and couldn't care less it seems. So let's not waste a vote on him as he will still count on the tables and if this game turns out bad in the later stages we will need him as a number on our side even if he didn't post...


Some people seem to keep on questioning the rationale behind my vote for Boro as a rep so let me state this (once again ). On Day5 with a couple of wolves still around I would only vote as a representative those I really trusted the most were having the good of the village in their mind (unless there were some really special circumstances). But on these first Days the selection of the representatives is a different thing and it can be made a powerful tool to have a closer look on some people who wouldn't otherwise be forced to take responsibility and to make decisions - or to see how someone you suspect acts with power invested on her/him.

Remember that those decisions are the ones we can actually read afterwards when we're getting some solid information (eg. the first wolf dies, someone breaks a tie in favour of a known wolf in a suspicious manner, etc...). In this game only the representatives vote so we'll have a bunch of wolves there being just too happy not to be cast into the light of the scrutiny following from being a representative - or they could be forced to make decisions they'd rather not do.

I'm not saying Boro is one of those who wishes to lurk in the shades. Hah, anything but that. But what I'm saying is that we should use the representative-roles also as a way of looking at how people behave and what kind of mark they leave during these first Days when we can afford it. Those decisions can be read afterwards when we have some real knowledge.

Yes, but he could get me lynched you say? Yes he could. But I do think we should be ready to make certain sacrifices if that would help the village win *. Although I must say that looking at Boro's posting toDay looks better - and I have myself cooled down to be sure living some RL in between last night (RL) and this. So whatever way this turns out I think I made a good choice.


Nerwen's gigantic task of going through the discussion between myself and Boro made me first think she was trying to be a bit too helpful without actually contributing anything (and morm actually commented on that as well) but then I realised that if I had time in my hands and were not a party to the debate I might have done the same thing... So I don't think we can actually make a point on that.

I find it interesting that Boro backs tp up with saying "killing McCaber was not something tp would do - and tp says that killing McCaber doesn't smell like Boro... Paraphrasing Ilya *consider some eyebrows raised*

I need to take a break now. I'll see if Greenie or Lommy wishes to post meanwhile.

* and winning that way would be beautiful indeed...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

There's a reason I made that comment about Gil. If you're innocent, then you'd do well to just agree with it and move on.

Originally Posted by me

I'm just letting him know that I have a good reason for saying it and that it is meant to benefit the innocent, therefore if he is innocent he should let it stand.

Originally Posted by Green

I don't see that mysterious reason he is talking about at all and would like to remind mr. phantom that even if you yourself know you are innocent, we others don't and have no reason to trust you.

You know- there was a time when I could just do ploys and such to help the village, and my fellow villagers wouldn't interfere. No, they would try as hard as they could to figure out what the heck I was up to, and try to play along. Or if they couldn't see what it was, they would just let it go, knowing full well that calling attention to a ploy and questioning it would render it useless.

I guess those days are over. You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.

All right, you want the explanation for why I declared Gil innocent, and suggested that all of us just consider him innocent?

Because if we all agreed to do it then the WWs would feel compelled to kill him, knowing that we'd never lynch him. Get it?

But of course we'd be faking- we can't honestly remove him from the possible lynch list. But as long as the WWs believed that Gil was never gonna get lynched, there's a possibility that they'd get rid of him. And so long as they're killing Gil, they can't be killing the Seer the same night, can they? (I seriously doubt he's the Seer.) And they'd also be removing someone who, if they had left around, could've been made into a sweet lynch target.

The fact is this ploy has worked before, in the sense that me or others saying junk like that has managed to influence the WW kill at night. Remember- we determine who the Wolves kill, for when they discuss the kill at Night they take into account our words and actions and probable next-day behaviors and use that to select the kill.

But yeah- that whole ploy is useless now. It may not have worked anyway, but I would've rather it not worked due to the WWs passing it up as opposed to having to explain the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Green

If we are talking about the "experienced veterans" click, this is certainly a good example.

Whatever. The fact is I recognized that Boro was doing the same exact sort of Seer ploy that I was planning on doing at a later time (ie trying to look like a possible Seer so the WWs kill you at night, thus buying another dream for the Seer). And then there was the McCaber kill which doesn't smell like Boro at all. Between those two things I felt that I might as well take a leap and trust him. If I'm wrong- congrats to him for bluffing me.

Satisfied, Green?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Satisfied, Green?

Quite, thank you. I'm sorry to have destroyed your ploy, though.

Originally Posted by phantom

You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.

I really hope it is so. You know, if no one pointed out behaviour that strikes them as suspicious or weird, then where would that lead? For my part, I have the habit of pointing out behaviour that looks suspicious or groundless to me, and I will not start making exceptions in that based on who the oddly behaving person is. (If I see an otherwise innocent-seeming you saying something like that in the future, though, I promise to let it go. )

[the phantom]

It's okay. The more important ploy (the Seer ploy) is still going strong, so no big deal. No matter how much Boro and I talk about how we're going to make ourselves Wolf-bait purposefully, the WWs still won't be able to get it out of their heads that it's all a bluff, and kill us anyway. Mwu ha ha!

It's fun to mess with them.

As far as Nog picking Boro- it did kind of surprise me. I'm not sure if it makes me suspect Nog or begin to clear him. On one hand I think Boro is probably innocent and therefore it is possible that an innocent Nog has come to believe it as well. But then there's the other possibility, that a guilty Nog saw that Boro and I both had some suspicion of him, and so voted for Boro to smooth things over and buy himself another day.

Which one is it? The world may never know.

Er... actually, we will know, probably just not today.

[Boromir88]

Is that by the post, or by the sentence?~Nerwen

For you, Ner, per post.

Just some statements of intention...

I want to see Gwath show up, if he doesn't, I could possibily vote for him today.

Kath, I would also like to hear more from you. I have a feeling right now that you're innocent, but I want to hear your suspects and trusteds. I will have to go and look at your posts from Day 2 yesterday, because so far I still only remember your day 1 stuff...

That is, Eonwe and Greenie are wolves (I'll note you don't seem confident and just aren't sure). Also, as far as Day 1, you said you trusted Nogrod, Lommy, and Brinn. So, what do you have for us today.

And Agan (plus yes Nogrod, even you), I want your ideas today, and I'm sure I don't have to say this, because I bet both of you will be very participatory.

Nogrod, I don't like your reactions, it looks like baiting, I mean you quote me and say "backing away huh wolfy?" or "come on Boro, these weak cases aren't you" (I'm paraphrasing by the way), and I don't know what you're trying to get out of that. Then again, I guess you're giving me a taste of my own medicine, so maybe it's a sign your innocent. I don't know why you would vote for me as a rep, could it be taken as a "maybe he'll back away if I vote for him,"...possibly? Then again, I don't think that's you, and obviously your reason given is in no way saying think I'm innocent. Also, with some people saying how wierd it looks, I get a feeling that there are some wolves behind the scenes trying to get me to pull the latch on you ole buddy.

Edit: crossed with Greenie

[Boromir88]

You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.~the phantom

Come on tp, you know with all the insanely, yet brilliant, stuff you've pulled people aren't going to easily trust you. They will look at everything you do as some evil bluff.

I've accepted it already, so just accept it, keep trying all the ploys, and move on.

[Gwathagor]

Hi Boro.

I think, phantom, that in this case Greenie might have let your ploy slide without trying to make you explain what was going on, but I agree with her that in general the village should hold people accountable when they say weird stuff. It always drives me nuts when players say outlandish things that require us to take their innocence for granted.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

It always drives me nuts when players say outlandish things that require us to take their innocence for granted.

I'm innocent.

And on that note, Fea lied. There aren't any WWs. We're just killing each other for no reason. The lesson being that government and politics destroys people and drives wedges between them.

And make me a sandwich please. With extra BBQ sauce. Thanks.

[the phantom]

For anyone who is interested, here is a two-day Rep vote list-

Agan +++ Brin/Boro
Brin +++ Agan/Kath
Boro +++ tp/Agan
Eonwe ++ Green/Lommy
Gil +++++ none/none
Green ++ Brin/morm
Gwath ++ Nog/none
Ilya ++++ Boro/Rune
KA ++++ Boro/Lommy
Kath +++ Lommy/Boro
Lommy ++ Ilya/Nerwen
morm +++ Nog/Agan
Nerwen ++ none/Lommy
Nog +++++ Ilya/Boro
Rune ++++ none/morm
Sally ++++ Legate/none
Shasta +++ Agan/Nerwen
tp ++++++ Legate/Kath

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Hello. . . I am back from Odense and will now read through todays posts, luckely they seem to be on a resonable level.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And on that note, Fea lied. There aren't any WWs. We're just killing each other for no reason. The lesson being that government and politics destroys people and drives wedges between them.

Honestly, I wouldn't doubt it coming from Fea. Sometimes I think she would rather toy with us than play with us.

Sorry I'm going to be absent for a bit today...my team is playing in a couple of hours and I'm going to watch the game at somebody's house and do a few errands today. I should be back before the voting time but may cast my vote sooner. Nothing has swayed me not to vote Nerwen.

[Thinlómien]

I'm here finally.

And I'm both baffled and flattered to have become a rep and an influential one too...

...too bad this village is confusing me.

Originally Posted by Agan

Was phantom irresponsible and outrageous when he threw away his vote on Shasta? Are reps whose votes don't make a difference irresponsible? Why should a rep who votes no one be considered irresponsible if they are not?

Making a throwaway vote is making a statement and making a track, and also fulfilling one's duty.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I assume that the first sentence is supposed to be "has given me no reason to suspect her". Otherwise your thinking is a bit original..

Oh. Yes, that's right.

Originally Posted by tp

So, do you not see the benefits that can be gained from taking the suspicions of others and logically answering them?

Not all suspicions can be answered logically. If I say I have a bad gut-feeling about you, what can you really say?

Originally Posted by Boro

I think what Lommy is trying to say is while you are in no way whatsoever quiet, and there is no question you are the most vocal player, you're not overly committing towards any one way...well if that makes sense.
Or let me put it this way, you're around a lot, giving lots and lots of information but you're holding back a bit. Thus, you're "behind the scenes," you know...doing all the prep work.

Yes, that's more or less what I meant. Thanks for rephrasing it for Mr Fandom.

And since it has become an issue, I'll clarify something for you, tp and Boro - I don't think you would have primarily picked McCaber just to be sporty, unlike Nog or I could have done. I know you both have a sort of different approach. BUT I think you could have taken the approach I suggested too, in certain conditions. Like, for example, if you were feeling the game was going very well for you.

I think Ilya's defenses of herself have been relatively innocent toDay. She sounds far more genuine than yesterDay.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Noggie. He seems paranoid.

Originally Posted by Shasta

What good points, Lommy? Point them out for me, cause I don't see any.

Hey, Shasta, was that just a banterish comment, or do you really want me to go through them and quote them for you?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

As for the second, in WW people usually use slip to mean a Freudian Slip, so that confused me a bit. Do you just mean her confusion?

Confusion, yes, or maybe mis-statement would make a good word for it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, here I am.
I am honoured by the trust my (two) constituents have placed in me.
I give my word that during my time in office, I shall endeavour to be beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!
...Oh, and I'll see if I can't manage to lynch a wolf while I'm about it.
Thank you.

I'm more and more convinced power drives people crazy in this village...

At this point of the game, my mind is full of horrible ideas, like tp, Boro and Nog being wolves together, or like said before, there being no wolves at all. But like I said already earlier, I'm going to be disappointed if that's the case...

PS. It's me, Nog and Greenie sharing a computer tonight...


edit: xed with everything on this pages and with Ilya's post on the previous one...

[mormegil]

I am not at all satisfied with Nerwen today and still will likely vote for her. Her tactics today indicate to me somebody who is trying to be very involved and helpful, but when I see so many quotes it seems that she is just making long posts to show how 'helpful' she is being...I don't buy it. I still think she played the ignorance card to help her buy immunity today which is working in most minds.