Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Boromir88]

Oh, I may be arrogant right now, Brinn, but when this is over you'll be thanking me and I will be accepting of any apologies.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Maybe the Seer has already dreamed of one of you. It has been several Nights already.

I said earlier that the Seer had dreamt of me already. I'm serious here, Gwath- I'd bet my entire Werewolf career on it.

I'm not sure if Boro has been done yet as the day is not over yet (and thus potential hints have not finished coming out), but if not I'd bet he's the dream tonight.

[Boromir88]

are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?~the phantom

It's wolf driven, mark my words. There may be innocent bystanders tagging on, but it's wolf-driven. I just hope it doesn't take your death to prove it. I would much prefer to keep you alive longer, but of course you may be a marked man now.

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry Boro but you are not making any sense to me on this. It seems fairly knee-jerk and grasping at straws all at once.~morm

You would like to think that wouldn't you? But, the truth is morm, I've figured you out haven't I? I want you to become a rep, I want to see what you do. I want to see if you have the spine to actually lynch me. You certainly won't come after me at night, I know that. But you're faced with a dilemma because you can't have me lynched so soon either, or it will all come crashing down.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You would like to think that wouldn't you? But, the truth is morm, I've figured you out haven't I? I want you to become a rep, I want to see what you do. I want to see if you have the spine to actually lynch me. You certainly won't come after me at night, I know that. But you're faced with a dilemma because you can't have me lynched so soon either, or it will all come crashing down.

I will gladly vote for you if I am elected. As I've stated I think you are a wolf. This cock-sured attitude of yours. The way you buddied up. All of these ploys that you've set up and hide behind. You are brazen my friend and I've played with you enough to know not to ever trust you at your word. You are far too clever for that. Now that you are under scrutiny you turn tail (yes that was an intentional reference) and begin lashing out at your primary accuser.

So I want to see if you have the spine to vote for me as rep so that I can vote for you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Don't make me a rep, or I'll be tempted... *evil grin*

Done.

++Lommy for Representative



...Okay. All jesting aside, the two I trust most in this village today are Lommy and mormegil. I'd vote for both of you if I could, but I only have one vote.

Lommy, I may come across as spiteful sometimes, but I don't mean to. I am genuinely angry at Phantom for getting Aganzir killed; I don't really see any gray area here, Aganzir was innocent, Phantom (and to a lesser extent, Boromir got her killed, intentional killing of an innocent is not thereof the action of an innocent. But I wouldn't spite-vote him. I'd be as objective about my vote as possible.

[Boromir88]

Why should Greenie trust you? Or Gwath? Or Nerwen? Think of anyone of us others (fex. one of the named above) saying one of these lines and think how you would react? Try it even once...~Nogrod

Because instead of looking at the hard evidence that we have so far (the kills), you all want to focus on that since tp and I are working well together we have to be wolves. We absolutely, without question have got to be wolves, and we have to be running this village into the dirt.

The fact that this got blown out of proportion was in no way my doing. When others asked and began suspecting me, I answered. It has nothing to do with arrogance, or saying I'm better than anyone else because I do all these tricks and traps, that's how this became a focus. Not me, not the phantom.

I told you what I was doing, you take it or leave it, but you better stand by your decision when it's time and it's proven I was right about tp. I will make you eat a toaster by golly, watch and wait.

Let me ask you how do you know we're making a mess of this? How do you know what the outcome's going to be? We haven't gotten there yet. The only way I survive in this place is to get into the wolves heads (when I'm innocent), if that gets under your skin you'll just have to deal with it.

How do I know tp and I have gotten into the wolves' heads? The seer is still alive correct. This isn't won on lynching one or two innocent's the first couple days, it isn't even won by lynching two wolves the first two days. It's not won by 7 ordos against 1 wolf. When there is one seer, it is won by the seer alone. Period. And we have to give him/her as many days as possible, as many dreams as possible. If that means I have to make myself a distraction early on, to get the seer to dream of me and then know who's side I'm on and what I'm doing, than I'll do it. If it means getting the wolves to go after other targets at night, maybe tricking them into believing I'm the seer, or Agan is, than I'll do it. That's how we win. End of story.

I mean your possibly excellent strategies, if they get you lynched then it's one less possibility for the village to get a wolf lynched.

I will be dead before I see the ring in the - oops wrong movie. I will be dead before I allow tp to be lynched.

So I want to see if you have the spine to vote for me as rep so that I can vote for you.~morm

You're right, I don't.

[Ilya]

Thoughts, questions, and concerns.

The Great Boro/Tummy Alliance
You know what? Say I that I buy it. They're drawing fire. They want to see who jumps on their open declaration and raises the suspicion. One might get lynched but then the other will take up the charge the next Day and flush out all the WWs. Sweet.

And if they're wolves, you know, then it's just going to be inevitable. I'll be smoking a cigar and they'll break into my room and I'll gruff, "It was only a matter of time" before they throw me out a window. (Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?) I joke, because I have no idea what this alliance does for them as wolves, other than allow them to work together openly, which they've pretty much been doing anyway.

I didn't catch the seer ploys put out by either of them, though. The quotes that they brought up seemed to me to be not that significant, and now they have complete deniability for anything that they say because they can just go, "It's a ploy! Jeez,Ilya, shut up and let us help the village, why don't you?" That gives me pause. They've been going after those who're questioning them with a snideness, and it's that tone more than anything that makes y'all seem arrogant and suspicious. Look, guys, be patient. I don't get it. I don't get what this gets us if you're innocent other than one of you lynched and the other silenced during the Night. If you want me to trust you, and I'm inclined to, just try and be a little patient with us, is all.

I'm not ready to lead either one of them to the oaks quite yet. I want to see how this develops.

Ordinary People
I have a feeling Gil's not playing anymore. That, or he's the ultimate submarine!
Lommy keeps speaking sense.
Sally, I don't have a read on yet.
Everything Kath has said feels on the level.
Rune, too, feels genuine.
So does Greenie.

Boys Becoming Men, Men Becoming Wolves
My initial, gut suspicions were of Agan, Brinn, Morm, and Nerwen. Even though I've already been proven wrong, they still hold. I'm less suspicious of Brinn, though, and more of the other two.
Shasta jumped on The Alliance with a lot of relish today.
Nogrod has phrased things in ways that are weird. I think the concerns raised about a "lynching distraction" are legit, whether Nog's a concerned citizen or a wolf trying to take the high road. I dunno which.
Gwath, while discussion is a good thing, there ought to be an aim when one tries to direct it. Maybe it's just the way you phrased the sentence, but it sounded like you wanted to further the distraction without planting a flag on either side.

I've no idea what I want to do about reps. I'd like to see what Rune would bring to it, since he hasn't had a turn yet, and I want to see more of Kath. I want to see more of Shasta, but I'm not sure if I can trust him, so I don't want to vote for him, and then there's Uncle Boro and T.P. John Bull over there, trying to show us they're fighting the good fight...I need some time away from the screen and mug of strong tea to think about it.

Edit: [b][b]/ is not the right code.

[the phantom]

Nogrod- that was a long post, and I can't really find the point of it. Well no- I can find the point that you are attempting to make, but I'm not sure how any of it applies to anything that's been said.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You know tp that none of these have nothing to do with "clear thinking" you're calling after or are in no way discernible to anyone outside your own head. You call for people to trust you with these!

You said this in reference to some quotes that I made, and I'm not sure how it applies. Let's list these quotes and go through them one by one.

Originally Posted by me

I did express surprise that I was being suspected apparently because I was actively trying to achieve something.

In this quote I was responding to Brin after she gave a mock quote from Boro and I painting us as very arrogant and mean and insulting to others. In my response, I am telling her what the feeling was behind any statement that I had made, and making it clear that it was not mean-spirited.

So I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove with that quote.

Originally Posted by me

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

In this quote, I am logically pointing out that what she has said about us would be perfectly true if we were innocent, and thus it didn't seem correct that it would be brought up as a point against us.

Once again, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to prove with that quote. It seems pretty logical to me.

And the final quote-

Originally Posted by me

And the reason we discussed the ploy with each other was simply to see if we were on the same page. Building trust! You people wonder why we're trusting each other? Um, maybe because we're doing things to build trust.

Once again, this quote is fairly straightforward. Brin said that Boro and I should never have brought up the ploy. I respond, giving her the reason that we did discuss it- to build further trust. A logical answer to the question, is it not?

So, seeing as all three quotes you gave were perfectly sensible and addressed specific points in the posts of others, I can hardly see how anything negative can be attributed to them. You say they were low quality, but I fail to see the reasoning. And has not the logic of a great many of my answers today showed quite clearly that those that suspect me have huge gaping holes in their arguments? Far worse than any you've shown in mine.

And I notice that you have not commented whatsoever on some of my extremely sensible posts. I even laid out your "chess match" for you, and asked your opinion, but you ignored it.

It seems to me that you are reading only what you wish and grasping desperately at straws. I am not the one who is "not delivering".

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And your trust may be statistically believable as you say, but if you two are trying to build trust how come you make arguments on statistical probabilities. Isn't trust just the opposite of statistics?

You know good and well that the statistics have nothing to do with our trust. I've only brought up statistics in order to logically demonstrate to others why they shouldn't be so hasty to assign Wolfishness to our trust.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I've been asking myself, "Is there anything wrong with wanting to affect the wolves' kill?"

Answer: no.

Only problem is, the wolves aren't going to kill a wolf. In a game with one team, an innocent is going to die at night.

So, assuming Phantom and Boro are innocent (which I'm still not ready to admit to)....

I suppose, from the point of logic, it was a sound plan. I still don't think it was at all fair to Agan (and Boro, seeing as how you were one of the people who made it happen, it's probably not your place to say "Oh, Agan's fine with it, in fact she's honored" when she's probably rolling in her grave right now), but I can't find anything wrong with it from a factual, coldly logical standpoint.

I'm a very sympathetic WW player, though (much like Rikae seems to be), so I'm still mad about it.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Shasta

intentional killing of an innocent is not thereof the action of an innocent.

You're missing the point, buddy.

An innocent is going to die. Every Night. It's a guarantee. There's no way to stop it from happening.

The best an Ordo can do is try and keep the WWs from making the best possible kill.

EDIT: It's not nice. I'm not saying that. I feel bad about it. But sacrifices must be made. And I don't think there's any way we're going to kill the Werewolves with kindness.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nogrod- that was a long post, and I can't really find the point of it. Well no- I can find the point that you are attempting to make, but I'm not sure how any of it applies to anything that's been said.

I understood part of his point to be that if the village finds you suspicious, then you're doing something suspicious - protests and ploys notwithstanding. You have a responsibility to play in a way that conforms to the system of popular suspicion that rules Ww, so if you are attracting too much attention, then either change or defend yourself just like all the other players. Don't ask players to take your innocence for granted.

I hope I am not misrepresenting you, Nogrod.

For the record, everyone, I myself do not yet have a position on the phantom-Boro thing. I'm just trying to help keep the discussion going for now.

[Nogrod]

Adding to my last one.

Please tp see my point. You've played with Boro before a lot and you share a long history and I can imagine how you might try to find a common chord (and it sure might be more of the person than the arguments in that case). But if that search makes two thirds of the village wishing to lynch you - taking it you're innocents - you're not helping but distracting. Do you get what I mean?

And your trust may be statistically believable as you say, but if you two are trying to build trust how come you make arguments on statistical probabilities. Isn't trust just the opposite of statistics?

[the phantom]

I have a long reply to you coming, Nog. Your reasoning is perplexing to me. But you'll see what I mean...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I have a long reply to you coming, Nog. Your reasoning is perplexing to me. But you'll see what I mean...

It looks pretty simple to me. If the village wants to lynch you, given that you're innocent, you're a "lynching distraction". Kind of odd given that you got Agan killed for that exact reason, .

[Ilya]

I'm here, I'm here! I'm only on page 22, but I'm here.

Post forthcoming.

[Nogrod]

morm for Lommy
Green for morm
Lommy for Shasta
Kath for Nogrod
Shasta for Lommy2

I would feel that my vote would go to the most genuine person if I voted for Lommy. But I will not do it as she is already chosen and I do not think we're in a situation where testing someone's super-delegate powers would be in place.

Somehow I'm not ready to try morm either. I'm tempted though, for curiosity that is, but I think we'd need a more neutral character here.

That leaves me Kath basically. I know she has a cool mind and I'd wish to see her in the delegation to balance this black and white -looking situation. Once again it's half trust, half curiosity. I think we can afford yet another try for that.

And I think she hasn't made a comment on Boro and tp for a few Days now so she might have fresh eyes for that.

++ Kath for representative

[mormegil]

I just got back from a bit of family time and I've just skimmed from page 25 on and it seems that Boro is intent on brow-beating anybody who disagrees or suspects him.