Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Nogrod, that is an amazing theory! I almost wish it was true. . .

In a way I would too as it would be simple from this moment on: just lynch you and / or morm first and then see if the seer has already gotten the rest confirmed...

But sadly the mates-part is not that simple - even if you oldies (you and morm) might fit the situation a bit too well. But so would Kath. And looking at who have been the antagonists of Boro and tp it might as well be Greenie or Lommy... *looks at the picture *

Or basically anyone...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In a way I would too as it would be simple from this moment on: just lynch you and / or morm first and then see if the seer has already gotten the rest confirmed...

But sadly the mates-part is not that simple - even if you oldies (you and morm) might fit the situation a bit too well. But so would Kath. And looking at who have been the antagonists of Boro and tp it might as well be Greenie or Lommy... *looks at the picture *

Or basically anyone...

I like it because it is a brilliant idea and it would make me a great werewolf player.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I like it because it is a brilliant idea and it would make me a great werewolf player.

Maybe Boro and tp suggested what you'd should do? You could have briefings every Night I mean...

Okay. I'm now off to some fairly basic and traditional WW-thing namely looking at the lynches. So far I have seen tp making steadfastly tallies about the choices for representatives but I don't remember seeing lynch-tallies.

The two might become more powerful if combined.

It will take some time though...

[the phantom]

I'm finally home... long day... posts on the way...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune

It still makes his initial reaction seem odd, to run out and say "I am being framed". . . only to "seconds" later proclaim it was all part of the plan.
At the very least it was clumsy.

Well, Rune, wouldn't clumsiness indicate innocence, since as a WW he would've already known the kill in advance and had plenty of time to formulate his position and present it in the best way possible?

Originally Posted by Lommy

I think I've solved the mystery of Boro and phantom - they must be lovers.

He likes football. I like football. It was a match made in heaven.

Originally Posted by me

Now, all of this nonsense about questioning my Seer dream statements. To me, it seems as if you're asking, "You seem sure that you've been a dream already. Who is the Seer, Phantom?"

Originally Posted by Lommy

Ok, fine, well if that's why you think you've been dreamt of - alright. You may have an idea who's the seer and that s/he has dreamt of you. BUT: You cannot expect us to take your word of it and thus it's a very silly argument for your innocence.

I didn't say you had to believe me. If you are an Ordo then naturally there is no possible way you could know for sure, I agree. I am merely explaining why I cannot answer questions like that, as well as putting forth that is is possible that I have spotted something.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I cannot see any reason why the wolves would like to kill you. So don't be silly...

I'm not being silly. If I am indeed Seer dreamed Ordo, and they can't get me lynched, they'll have to Night-kill me at some point.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Lastly, I've been thinking... we shouldn't lynch tp or Boro toDay. However annoying they are. I suggest keeping an eye on them for they are acting mighty suspiciously, but I'd really rather keep them around for a while more (a Day or two) since there is nothing extremely serious against them and they will provide more and more evidence againt or for themselves as the game goes on. You may call me an elitist or a turncloak, I know - but I'd hate to lose players like them in vain. If they're innocent, they're a huge asset to the village.

That is, they would be a huge asset if they weren't such a distraction. I therefore suggest (or to phrase better, echo the earlier suggestions) that we should stop focuing on them like this. And that "we" means all of us, even the gentlemen themselves. We're assisting the wolves by this single-mindedness, especially if Boro and tp are innocent.

Extremely sensible Lommy.

As I was driving home from work, I was thinking to myself, "This entire day pretty much has been Boro and I. Most suspicions have come to revolve around us, or around people's reactions to us. Even mine have pretty much come to line up with those than seem to oppose us. So if I am lynched and found an Ordo, where the heck will the village be able to start with suspicions tomorrow, if all day today was completely Boro-tp centered? Naturally, they'll begin with reactions to the Boro-tp thing that happened the day before. Meaning that the village will still be focused on it. We really need to get past this!"

So yeah, I'm really hoping we can let this thing go soon. I'm totally with you there.

(to be continued...)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

Nope. We were trying to make the kill look attractive to the Wolves.

Originally Posted by morm

My problem here is how you say 'we'. How can you and Boro actually coordiante anything unless you are discussing things and the only ones who are able to discuss is the wolves.

But since the exchange took place during the Day... even WWs can't talk then.

In addition, what is wrong with saying "we"? "We" refers to yourself and at least one other. I was trying to set her up. Boro was trying to set her up. Therefore it is perfectly correct English to say that "we" were trying to set her up. What is the problem here? Is it unacceptable to be in unison about anything?

And morm- you did read this post, yes? What do you have to say about the reasoning contained therein?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And morm- you did read this post, yes? What do you have to say about the reasoning contained therein?

Yes and I was fine until this morning. I began reading with the full intent on trying to be a little more calm and rationale, however when Boro begins full on assaulting me even more I admittedly had a knee-jerk reaction and went back to my assault on him. The difficutly I am having is, the more I listen to you tummy the more I feel you are innocent. You are now stepping into that role of how I feel you are normally and that is reassuring. I am however going to keep an eye on you, but I cannot get over the Boro thing. He demands answers from me and yet does not show the courtesy of replying to my queries. He claims I skirt arond the issues, which is patently false, and then he skirts all over the place, glancing and shifting blame elsewhere....BAH I was just going to go into another diatribe of what I've previously stated today about him but if one cares they can go back and look.

I am very frustrated with him right now because of the double standard he applies. His hypocrisy knows no bounds as he targets others for the exact things he is doing. I'm frustrated with myself because I know that I've been sucked into this and put blinders on myself...I admit I started this whole Borowolf thing and I have become blind to any other possibility.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

I don't like your reasoning that if someone suspects you that someone has to be a wolf or someone who has fallen into a Wolf plot...

I can understand this objection. Perhaps I can explain this in such a way that makes you feel less slighted.

First, we know that the lynch mob each and every day is impacted by the choice of the WWs during the Night. One of the primary objectives of the WWs is to make a kill that will bring about a favorable result the following day. As the primary holders of information and the only group of people who has an opportunity at an unopposed kill every cycle, the WWs can be expected to be successful quite often in causing lynches to go favorably.

Their kills and their words effect us, and our thinking. And as we have no concrete information, it is expected that the WWs will successfully cause us to be wrong a lot.

I can almost guarantee you that I'm completely and totally wrong about someone right now. Multiple someones I'd bet.

So given that, my comments that Ordos have been swept up into the WW plot- there is no way that it isn't true. Every single day at least a couple innocents go the direction the WWs were hoping for. It doesn't make them dumb. It just makes them wrong for that day. I've been wrong plenty. So take no offense at my statements, please.

Originally Posted by Brin

And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me."

Originally Posted by me

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Green

So what you mean is that if you yourself know you are innocent then everyone else should automatically assume so too and not suspect you at all? I don't get this logic, honestly.

Erm, I'm not sure where you're getting that, Green.

Brin makes her statement and gives a paraphrasing, and then I simply point out that there is nothing at all suspicious about the paraphrased statement, for it is the exact statement that could be made were Boro and I innocent. Therefore what point was she trying to make? I was questioning her, and how her statement could possibly mean anything bad about me, or paint me in a negative light, since all that it was was a true statement.

I'm not sure what you're saying about expecting others to assume I'm innocent. That had nothing to do with my statement at all.

[Boromir88]

First, let me say I want that picture taken down immediately! To think I just told Hookbill how much I loved his latest P & A cartoon, now he's holding pictures of me that I wanted burned years ago!

What it means is that I found it odd that you were so vehemently against me and then all of the sudden you back off all nice and neat. It was odd and I felt it important to point it out.~morm

I didn't back off, I came after you with a barage, you said it was a "grand" case. I'm telling you that yesterday my attack against you was designed to get reactions from other villagers. It wasn't a random lashback against whoever suspected me (or haven't you noticed that I still feel Greenie is quite innocent eventhough she has suspected me?) I had my case against you already laid out, but didn't come forward with it until today. You see, it would be far too easy for a wolf to bandwagon onto the posts against you I made today. My attack yesterday was designed to look like an aggressive retort to judge other people.

For my reasons just read posts 1052 and 1059.

As a summary, you're playing cautiously. I don't like your suspicions against Ilya, Nerwen, or the phantom. It's not because I don't agree with you, it's your suspicions are simple, easy, and safe. They're all easy lynch targets, one's a new player that you try to some how tie to Legate, if Legate is a wolf. Funny enough Legate wasn't a wolf and you still try to tie her to being a safe, new wolf. You said the same thing about Nerwen, and added that she made a gaffe about the ranger. That could be true, but it's still a safe choice for a wolf..."Look I thought she was playing ignorant? I didn't know." And I explained perfectly why Nerwen does not need to be ignorant to look innocent. Pick any one of vague surface reasons to suspect the phantom...he's a jerk, he knows too much because he trusts Boro, he's peppier than normal, he's got somethign to hide. Whatever it is, it's so vague you can pick an argument like that about anyone and people can find a reason to agree with it..."Wow, morm's right, you know tp is arrogant." It's still a shallow, surface accusation that doesn't answer well how does that make tp a wolf?

You responded to one thing and threw out some sort of statistic to those posts, that's hardly blowing it out of the water.

Then you assumed that since I also was going after Rune, that somehow I had backed off you, when I never said anything of the sort. What I can't make a statement against two people? It was you who tried to get my focus on Rune, and hence my reply that it wasn't going to work.

If Boro and tp are wolves something like that would be their only chance of avoiding the seer's eyes.~Nogrod

That post has to be some of the biggest balogna, bologna, baloney, whatever it is I've seen. That's hilarious, you just rewrite the exact scenario that took place between tp and me, and concluded that's the only way we could avoid the seer detection, by playing this way. Now there's a shocker...wow.

[Nogrod]

tp wanted something to discuss?

Okay, here are the actual lynch-votes with the stated reasons for those still living.

Day1. Legate 180 – Day
Aganzir -> Legate (2)
Nogrod -> Gwath (2) (for trying to make me ignore him from the category I would most likely pick my choice by voting me as a rep)
Legate -> Eonwë (2)
Brinn -> Legate (4 – 6 more to come) (other candidates: McCaber and The Ka but not spreading the vote)
Boro -> Legate (6 – 4 more to come, eg. the decisive vote) (Eonwë’s death would not inform us but Legate’s or Agan’s might)
Ilya -> Legate (8) (Boro’s right, that might tell us something – even if not satisfied with the vote)
Tp -> Shasta (2) (self-claimed “throwaway vote”)

Day2. Eonwë changing his posting style – Day
Kath -> Eonwë (2) (on feeling; Greenie and Gwath being other possibilities)
Morm -> Nerwen (2) (she’s playing very smart, fairly confident on his vote; also suspecting Nogrod and Ilya)
Agan -> Nerwen (4 – 8 more to come)
Lommy -> Eonwë (5 – 5 more to come, including Nerwen’s 2, eg. the decisive vote) (There’s something fishy about Eonwë, don’t wish Nerwen to go just randomly)
Nerwen -> Eonwë (7) (naturally…)
Boro -> Eonwë (10) (“For formality”)

That's the factual information then.

If I have represented anyone's reasons for your votes as reps wrongly please let me know. I didn't obviously read all the thread through but tried to catch those reasons to your votes from your vote-posts or a few posts back.

The next stop; the reasons given for the reps (and that is the thing that takes time - I've finished Day1 but will still have to make a take on Day2).

But feel free to start looking at these.


EDIT: Added bolding to the representatives who voted to make it easier to read...

[mormegil]

Well it's good to see that Boro's record is above reproach just don't bring it up otherwise he won't like it.

[Nogrod]

I'm giving you these votes for representatives right now for Day1 as well. The same rules apply but here I have tried to use the actual quotes (which are in "brackets")


Day1

Agan -> Brinn
Greenie -> Brinn (2)
(“because she is a good sensible player, seems innocent, and has already received one vote so is certainly through”)
Lommy -> Ilya
(“Because I really want to know her better, and I would also welcome some fresh views in the final debates”)
Kath -> Lommy
(“She strikes me as pretty trustworthy at the moment and I also think she'll hold to her own opinion even if the other Reps are pretty strongwilled, and on Day 1 I think that's good”)
The Ka -> Boro
(“I've always liked Boro88's level of common sense, even if it's not exactly how I or whom I trust as innocent see the situation. Plus, I agree with his point of action on that representatives are not going to morph into something completely different just because they have their own playing field later on”)
Morm -> Nogrod
(Boro, Diamond and Nog. I haven't read anything from any of them. Boro has burned my trust in the past, but he's also saved me...Nogrod is intense as is Diamond and all are very thoughtful and analytical… Boro already has a vote and I presume will get another. I would be comfortable having both Nog and Boro as reps. Sorry Diamond, I have a longer history with Nog so he won out)
Nogrod -> Ilya (2)
(I'm tempted to make Ilya our second representative right now with a second vote. I think she might be one we should see there. I mean even if she is an old sport around here she's quite unknown to us later-comers in here and I really would like to see what she does - and looking at her last post just made me a bit more confident about her … I was a bit torn between Ilya and Lommy as my choices but I will be sticking to my curiousity this Day)
Eonwë -> Greenie
Gwath -> Nogrod (2)
(“I think he'd do a good job of keeping the quiet players on their toes, making the ranks of the sub-reindeer-sitters a less than safe place for a wolf to hide. This, at any rate, is my hope”)
Legate -> tp
(“if there is any really good time in the game to vote tp, it would be possibly now. Later, if I were unsure, I would pick less... hmm... eccentric people. Now I am only maybe somewhat not entirely sure about where tp's suspicions would be going (says the one who said it does not make any difference... apparently, this game is full of switches on my part)”)
Shasta -> Aganzir
(“I should probably vote now, just on the off chance that rehearsal runs long. So without further ado...” Not much else I did find.)
Sally -> Legate
(My original rep choice was going to be Noggie, followed by Phantom, Agan, and Legate in no particular order. Noggie's already got his two required rep points, and I know that Phantom will be paying attention to the game (too much, if anything, heh) so he'd be a good choice too. However, my vote goes to.... [Legate] … I feel fairly comfortable with my choice”)
Ilya -> Boro (2)
(“Even though I'm still not quite sure about him, his logic is sound and his points all seem worth consideration”)
Brinn -> Aganzir (2)
(“Because unlike Shasta, she has one vote and I continue to think we'd be better off with more reps than less”)
tp -> Legate (2)
(“Legate would be a diplomatic choice as he voted for me”)
Boro -> tp (2)
(“Greenie won't be as active as the phantom, but I know won't be silent. Also, the phantom has made clear he would still be active in an "advisory" role if need be”)

[A Little Green]

Hello I'm here. I'll make a sweet little (green) list.

I'M UNEASY ABOUT:
Boro & phantom - I think I have stated earlier why I am uneasy about him. The same goes for phantom. I think it's been more phantom who's doing it but complaining about why they are getting all the attention seems really too much. You can't really expect that the village will pay no extra attention to guys behaving the way you two have done. I might suggest lynching one of the two - preferably phantom, I find him more suspicious than Boro - just to be clear.

Originally Posted by phantom

So if I am lynched and found an Ordo, where the heck will the village be able to start with suspicions tomorrow, if all day today was completely Boro-tp centered? Naturally, they'll begin with reactions to the Boro-tp thing that happened the day before. Meaning that the village will still be focused on it. We really need to get past this!

Yes, might be - but how does it change if both of you are alive? In that case, we still have much to go on with except for this issue, and in addition we still have the problem of not knowing where you two stand. At least I am being horribly distracted of thinking anything else at the moment, and I'm quite convinced it won't change if we won't get to know the truth. If you're innocent I don't think the wolves will kill you, you are too useful for them by causing all this mess.

Nogrod - Still hasn't answered the question I have asked something like three times? So I ask again: why did you give a third rep vote to a Boro you didn't trust when he was already through anyway? Nog's been more innocentish toDay than before, but I'm still uneasy about him.

I'M TORN ABOUT:
Ilya & Nerwen - No, I'm not pairing them up as though I saw a suspicious connection between them or anything - I'm pairing them up because my reaction to both of them is pretty much confused. I get both innocent and suspicious vibes from both. I'll look at them when I have the time (which certainly isn't now). For now I'll leave them be.

I'M NOT UNEASY ABOUT:
Brinniel - Nothing new.
Lommy - Nothing new.
Kath - Nothing new.
morm - Nothing new.
Runey - Nothing new.
Sally - Nothing new.
Shasta - Nothing new.

I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT:
Gil-Galad - He's annoying me with his absence.
Gwathie - He deserves to be called Gwathie though he hates the nickname. I need more substance.
The Ka - Has posted more toDay and I'm glad to see it; but there is still too little to go on with there, I fear.

I could vote toDay (in no particular order):
phantom
Boro
Nog
Gil
Gwath

I will certainly not vote toDay:
Anyone on my "Not uneasy about" -list.

I'll vote soon. Any thoughts from my fellow reps? Who do you think of voting?


EDIT: x-ed with phantom, morm and phantom

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Erm, I'm not sure where you're getting that, Green.

Brin makes her statement and gives a paraphrasing, and then I simply point out that there is nothing at all suspicious about the paraphrased statement, for it is the exact statement that could be made were Boro and I innocent. Therefore what point was she trying to make? I was questioning her, and how her statement could possibly mean anything bad about me, or paint me in a negative light, since all that it was was a true statement.

I'm not sure what you're saying about expecting others to assume I'm innocent. That had nothing to do with my statement at all.

Ah. I read your statement as "If I'm innocent, then no one should suspect me and instead thank me of all the good I have done." I don't know how to better explain it, but it looked to me like you were saying that if you are innocent like you claim you are, people should not be allowed to suspect you at all but instead should be thanking you for your services to the village. Do I make any sense at all? Gah, this is what you get when not having English as your first language - I really can't explain better. Annoying.

I'll let Lommy in very very soon and don't know whether I'll vote before or after she has posted...


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[Boromir88]

While I agree that the Seer is very important, I really have to question this. Don't you think the village has any importance at all?~Greenie

I thought I also said everyone has a part to play? Anyway, the basic thing I was trying to say is my plans are all an attempt to get the seer as many dreams as possible because that is how we'll win. Yes, everyone is needed, some prefer to look at votes, come to conclusions, others like to go based on a lot of feeling...and etc. I don't play conservatively, I may be a distraction right now, if you want to lynch me for that go ahead. But, I'm telling you what I'm doing, now take it or leave it.

[mormegil]

Boro, I'm done man. I think you and I are two stubborn mules going at it. It's more aggrivating than it's worth.

Green, if I don't vote for Boro which I may consider giving him a reprieve based on what phantom has been explaining...I am trying to calm down and look at the whole picture. However, there is no way I can go through the whole thread again so I'm left to some degree with my gut. Anyway if not Boro I'm really not sure who to go for. I've turned all my attention exclusively to Boro, for better or worse. I would like to get a closer look at some others but I doubt that will happen now. Honestly I'd be fairly content with Gil. I'm fairly certain he is not a wolf but on the other hand he has done nothing to deserve being here. However, that would be foolish to vote him off if nothing more he is a number to our side that could prove the difference between victory and death.

If I were to randomize my pick we would have about a 25% of being correct. I went here and it generated a 12 which based on the list would be Rune so I could vote for him and imagine what 'ammo' that would give Boro.

But really the ones that stick out to me most are Boro, Ilya, Nerwen and Nogrod. Tummy does but to a much lesser degree than previously.

[Nogrod]

I just saw this...

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Nogrod - Still hasn't answered the question I have asked something like three times? So I ask again: why did you give a third rep vote to a Boro you didn't trust when he was already through anyway? Nog's been more innocentish toDay than before, but I'm still uneasy about him.

Originally Posted by me on #594 eg. the votepost

Anyway, I'm giving Boro a third vote even if parts of toDay are just black areas to me as I had no time to read them all. I'll try to catch up tomorrow as it's now 3AM here... Happily we have these 48 hour-Days!

But I really want to see what Boro does with the power invested on him on that scale... even if it narrows down the number of the representatives.
(Think of the game balance indeed! Seven "two-voters" are the happiest place for the wolves qualified... after not being a representative in the first place, that is)

I don't trust him at all at this moment but I want to check his cards whatever it leads to.

Okay?

We were able to afford that. Even if I'm not sure it was of any good as he did cast a meaningless vote as the last one... So not too much infop on that on retrospect.

But there's a lot on Boro afterwards!


I'm working on my summary-post. It will take some time still but I'm making it.