The Middle Earth Popularity Cup - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-23-2008, 12:59 PM

++Saruman

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

Lalwendë · 11-23-2008, 01:11 PM

++Skip

I hate Skip, pitting Saruman Vs Gollum. How could he be so cruel?!

Tuor in Gondolin · 11-23-2008, 03:08 PM

It's tempting to follow Lalwende's vote (but for Skip's
picking Glaurung instead of the noble Smaug ), however,
we must choose + + Gollum, who only wants to
help and get back his own from hobbits, who not only
steal the Precious but spoil nice rabbits! Granted, there
was that Deagol affair...but that was sooo long ago
and it was poor Smeagol's birthday.....

Nogrod · 11-23-2008, 03:26 PM

An interesting choice indeed.

Well they both share some common traits, first and foremost the fact that they were both lured by something larger than themselves and were corrupted by that - and finally destroyed by it.

Asking why Gollum was lured by the craft of Sauron is a no-brainer - even if Gollum's story is touchy and tragic.

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects

) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)

Heh, the classical choice between the intellectual excitement vs. the emotional "being moved"...

I may need to abstain from voting this day. Let's see.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-23-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects

) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...

Sauron? What? No, no, good mister! Now you are being unjust to poor Saruman! It was all only his own fault, his own achievement to fall! He met Sauron only much, much later!

Quote:

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)

I actually find his end really great, this Sharkey-thing. Being completely destroyed, losing everything this way? Fascinating, I say. "A little mischief in a mean way", that summed it pretty well, and it's just great!

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him. I like Gollum (the original one, whenever I happen to discard the movie imagination of him), but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

Gollum the Great · 11-23-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him.

While Saruman is in and of himself interesting, what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman. The aura of production and breeding, the design and craftswork of the Numenoreans' unbreakable tower now being used by this ultimate character completely carries me away.

Quote:

Originally posted by Legate
but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

All the way no one could dream of standing within about 50 miles of Saruman.

The word "cool" understates him.

Gollum the Great · 11-23-2008, 03:09 PM

Legate has stated every reason I can think of for my vote.

++The White Hand

Though I do like Gollum a lot. For obvious reasons.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-23-2008, 03:13 PM

Now that's a word, Gollum! Indeed! Now really - who can vote for Gollum anymore, when even Gollum does not vote Gollum?

Thinlómien · 11-23-2008, 03:18 PM

++Saruman

No mistake, I like them both, (and in a way, I like neither of them)...

But if you asked me which one is more charming, or with which one I'd rather have a cup of tea & talk some deep pihilosophical stuff, the answer is obvious.

Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post...

)

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-23-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post...

)

A fan-girl of the deepest rank

mormegil · 11-23-2008, 03:15 PM

A write-in candidate if I may as I care not for either of these candidates

++Beren

Quote:

although you clearly are right

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

skip spence · 11-24-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

Funny you should mention that because I've just decided to implement this rule, only with the slight alteration that it is my vote that carries the extra weight. Must save the precious, yesss.

skip spence · 11-23-2008, 03:23 PM

As for me, I like the idea of both characters equally yet the choice is easy. Whereas Saruman is made out to be a master of wizardry and rethorics his actual appearances show little of it and that don't impress me much, as Shania Twain so eloquently put it.

Gollum on the other hand is all that he's made out to be, and then some.

++Gollum

Groin Redbeard · 11-23-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

Ya, what he said!

++Saruman

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 11-23-2008, 04:17 PM

I would have to say

++Saruman

if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy. Gollum got sucked in by the Ring so fast, I can't help but think he was already something of a stinker at heart.

Lalwendë · 11-23-2008, 04:27 PM

Alright, time for me to stop being facetious.

I must make a decision and even though Gollum is a far better literary creation, I have to hold up my 'white hands' right now and admit that I find Saruman utterly cool and always have done. So if I had to live without one or indeed spend time with one of them, it would be Saruman and I'd be a fool to deny it. He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.

++Saruman

Boromir88 · 11-23-2008, 07:49 PM

++Saruman

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature.

Ilya · 11-23-2008, 08:08 PM

++ Gollum

He's the only ringbearer who actually accomplishes exactly what he sets out to do.

Nerwen · 11-23-2008, 11:24 PM

Well... let's see... Gollum is much the more sympathetic villain, but

++Saruman

is cooler.

(Besides, I came out as him on the character quiz.

)

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-24-2008, 04:18 AM

These

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman.

three

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy.

things

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.

reflect clearly the variety of possibilities for which one can like Saruman: that's exactly the variety inside him which I was talking about! Many-colours, indeed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature.

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

Boromir88 · 11-24-2008, 10:09 AM

Aye Legate, and his "crows and gibbets" speech is purely a thing of beauty.

skip spence · 11-24-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

Okay, okay, those things are really heavy!

Saruman wins 9-4

Match 9 of round 1

Next up is another exiting encounter. Both are bearded, old and in possession of supernatural abilities but whereas one lives for his work, the other lives for pleasure.

Gandalf vs Tom Bombadil

11-23-2008, 12:59 PM	#1
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	++Saruman Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!! __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-23-2008, 01:11 PM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	++Skip I hate Skip, pitting Saruman Vs Gollum. How could he be so cruel?! __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-23-2008, 03:08 PM	#3
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	It's tempting to follow Lalwende's vote (but for Skip's picking Glaurung instead of the noble Smaug ), however, we must choose + + Gollum, who only wants to help and get back his own from hobbits, who not only steal the Precious but spoil nice rabbits! Granted, there was that Deagol affair...but that was sooo long ago and it was poor Smeagol's birthday..... __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 11-23-2008 at 03:12 PM.

11-23-2008, 03:26 PM	#4
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	An interesting choice indeed. Well they both share some common traits, first and foremost the fact that they were both lured by something larger than themselves and were corrupted by that - and finally destroyed by it. Asking why Gollum was lured by the craft of Sauron is a no-brainer - even if Gollum's story is touchy and tragic. But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects ) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints... Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end) Heh, the classical choice between the intellectual excitement vs. the emotional "being moved"... I may need to abstain from voting this day. Let's see. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

11-23-2008, 03:09 PM	#7
Gollum the Great Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Pinnacle of my own might Posts: 386	Legate has stated every reason I can think of for my vote. ++The White Hand Though I do like Gollum a lot. For obvious reasons. __________________ 'It just shows you how true it is that one-half the world doesn't knows how the other three-quarters lives.' Bertie, The Code of the Woosters, by P. G. Wodewouse

11-23-2008, 03:13 PM	#8
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Now that's a word, Gollum! Indeed! Now really - who can vote for Gollum anymore, when even Gollum does not vote Gollum? __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-23-2008, 03:18 PM	#9
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	++Saruman No mistake, I like them both, (and in a way, I like neither of them)... But if you asked me which one is more charming, or with which one I'd rather have a cup of tea & talk some deep pihilosophical stuff, the answer is obvious. Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post... ) __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

11-23-2008, 03:23 PM	#13
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	As for me, I like the idea of both characters equally yet the choice is easy. Whereas Saruman is made out to be a master of wizardry and rethorics his actual appearances show little of it and that don't impress me much, as Shania Twain so eloquently put it. Gollum on the other hand is all that he's made out to be, and then some. ++Gollum __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

11-23-2008, 04:17 PM	#15
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	I would have to say ++Saruman if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy. Gollum got sucked in by the Ring so fast, I can't help but think he was already something of a stinker at heart. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

11-23-2008, 04:27 PM	#16
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Alright, time for me to stop being facetious. I must make a decision and even though Gollum is a far better literary creation, I have to hold up my 'white hands' right now and admit that I find Saruman utterly cool and always have done. So if I had to live without one or indeed spend time with one of them, it would be Saruman and I'd be a fool to deny it. He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron. ++Saruman __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-23-2008, 07:49 PM	#17
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	++Saruman Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature. __________________ Fenris Penguin

11-23-2008, 08:08 PM	#18
Ilya Wight Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: In the cold Posts: 202	++ Gollum He's the only ringbearer who actually accomplishes exactly what he sets out to do. __________________ Arvedui III has walked to Rivendell!

11-23-2008, 11:24 PM	#19
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Well... let's see... Gollum is much the more sympathetic villain, but ++Saruman is cooler. (Besides, I came out as him on the character quiz.) __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

11-24-2008, 10:09 AM	#21
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Aye Legate, and his "crows and gibbets" speech is purely a thing of beauty. __________________ Fenris Penguin