Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, the deepest pits of Angband remained, but there was a concerted effort to destroy the edifice. The Valar didn't just leave without doing a cursory bit of demolition. The Valar's bad habit was doing everything half-assed.

Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely.

All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army?

To all this I say only: Yes, from my part, yes, not enough sense. Even Gandalf and Galadriel could not persuade the Council to attack Dol Guldur earlier, as we are reminded of (and the history would have taken a very different course). I can also imagine Gandalf was in a hurry to Erebor when the deed was done, Saruman did not perhaps get his hands dirty, and Galadriel - who knows. Why couldn't she just have "torn down its walls and laid bare its pits"? I am pretty sure even after the War of the Ring, she did it by herself, not with the help of Elven sappers and explosives. No, for some reason - we don't know why - she simply didn't do that even then. But this thing, for me, is not an evidence for whether the Council had or whether it had not any army with them there. So,

As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council

Certainly not controlled, that would be pretty overstretching it, but not destroyed either, right. It's a similar course of events as in Mordor's border forts, when "the evil crept out of Gorgoroth" and overtook the garrison of Narchost, Carchost and the Tower of Cirith Ungol - and later, Minas Morgul itself. (Only with the difference that I doubt there were any Elves left in Dol Guldur to guard it, that sounds pretty weird - just imagine it. The evil just returned into an empty fortress, which was left there.) But I believe, in contrary to you, that the Council HAD theoretically the power do destroy Dol Guldur, only they simply didn't do it. Or maybe they did not have the power right at the moment they came there (being exhausted from the battle, the wizards using all their spell slots... ), but they still had plenty time to do it "later", after everybody had time, but they simply, as it goes, procrastinated to the point that Sauron's forces actually returned.

Still, the point of it is: I don't see the non-destruction of Dol Guldur as an argument for the assumption that there was no army there. In all honesty, even a commando of a hundred Wood Elves would have a problem with destroying the walls of Dol Guldur - what would they do, shoot at the bricks with arrows?

[alatar]

Methinks that it was more like the oft-maligned Neville Chamberlain deal where the White Council came back with a promise from Sauron that he would pack up and go and then put the place up for sale or rent. The base master of lies probably got the Council on the hook for moving expenses.

Another one of Elrond's 'fruitless victories.'

However it happened, Gandalf still for a time believed that Sauron was driven out by Saruman (even though Sauron planned to leave anyway).

[skip spence]

In all honesty, this whole Dol Gúldur episode makes little sense, army or no army. I'm leaning towards the army alternative though (Celeborn and Elrond's men, supported by Saruman's devises, whatever those may be) as to me it's more plausable. If there were no army, are we then to believe that Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Elrond trekked across Middle Earth all by themselves to oust Sauron the Great from his feared stronghold, no doubt defended by Orcs and Eru knows what? That seems a tall order to me.

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

Perhaps they built a large, wooden badger.

[alatar]

Just to add a little history regarding Dol Guldur, find below a list of entries from the LotR Appendix B - Third Age:

• 1050- About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood.

• 1100 - The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgul.

• 2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

• 2063 - Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East.

• 2460 - Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.

• 2850 - Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's heir.

• 2851 - The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

• 2941 - The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

• 2951 - Sauron sends three of the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur.

• 3019 - Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur...and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led a host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its wall and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

About time! So if I'm doing my math right, for 1919 years, give or take, Dol Guldur was occupied except for 10 of those years when Sauron feinted. Reading the Appendix, do you know how much happened in those almost 2,000 years?

How much better had Galadriel stepped across the River a few years sooner.