Education in Middle Earth

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I did not say other means of trade and industry did not exist, I meant that the Shire was not economically strong beyond the obvious trades. The trades you mention were all relatively small and unimportant. The Shire was way, way behind the other countries of Middle Earth economically. Mithril may have been rare and valuable, but Gandalf rated it as far more valuable than the Shire and everything in it. I do not think he would have said such a bold statement to dismiss Loth Lorien, Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, or even Dale.

I think you're mixing economic size with economic prosperity. The Shire was certainly prosperous, though not as large as Gondor.

I'm not sure that you could assign traditional economic value to someplace like Lothlorien. In fact, I don't know of any trade, industry, or currency which the elves of Lothlorien used, and that if you tried to explain trade and the ME equivalent of GDP to Celeborn, he'd be quite uninterested. I would even venture that the only valuable things the elves there had, besides bows (which they didn't trade) and Lembas (ditto), were the articles of yore that they had collected over the years. And those were either kept safe, used personally, or bequeathed as gifts for service.

As for Mordor, the value would theoretically be whatever some buyer would want to pay for it. I'm not so sure what kind of monetary value one could assign a place that was hot, choked by ash, ruled by an evil god, populated by slaves and monsters, had fertile land only around Lake Nurnen, and in which all of the buildings were caked with layers of filth.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I think you're mixing economic size with economic prosperity. The Shire was certainly prosperous, though not as large as Gondor.

I'm not sure that you could assign traditional economic value to someplace like Lothlorien. In fact, I don't know of any trade, industry, or currency which the elves of Lothlorien used, and that if you tried to explain trade and the ME equivalent of GDP to Celeborn, he'd be quite uninterested. I would even venture that the only valuable things the elves there had, besides bows (which they didn't trade) and Lembas (ditto), were the articles of yore that they had collected over the years. And those were either kept safe, used personally, or bequeathed as gifts for service.

As for Mordor, the value would theoretically be whatever some buyer would want to pay for it. I'm not so sure what kind of monetary value one could assign a place that was hot, choked by ash, ruled by an evil god, populated by slaves and monsters, had fertile land only around Lake Nurnen, and in which all of the buildings were caked with layers of filth.

The Shire had potential for economic growth, I certainly did not rule that out. But so long as Hobbits lived in their own little country, unconcerned by the events beyond their borders, economic growth would be very difficult. They would need to develop their trades further afield to prosper. On economic size, the Shire was not a rival to other countries. The other drawback is that Hobbits were not always suited to the trades of Men, e.g. clothing, weaponary, pottery etc due to their size and taste. A cultural hurdle existed here, and one would wonder if Hobbits could adapt to the market needs of men in other countries. I would welcome any economists out there to prove me wrong!

As for Loth Lorien and Mordor, they are simply too incomprehendable to measure their true value and prestige economically.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Shire had potential for economic growth, I certainly did not rule that out. But so long as Hobbits lived in their own little country, unconcerned by the events beyond their borders, economic growth would be very difficult. They would need to develop their trades further afield to prosper.

I think they were already prosperous. Food was plentiful. Cottage industries abounded. And, it seems, their pipe weed was exported both to Bree and Isengard.

As For Loth Lorien and Mordor, they are simply too incomprehendable to measure their true value and prestige economically.

They always gave me the impression of being outside of the traditional economic system. In fact, the early MERP game (from ICE) went into some fair detail describing elven society as a "hierocracy", with gifts and honors as "currency", rather than money. Maybe later I can find those books in the attic.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I think they were already prosperous. Food was plentiful. Cottage industries abounded. And, it seems, their pipe weed was exported both to Bree and Isengard.

Pipeweed and beer trades, and perhaps food, were the chief international trades that the Shire boomed on economically. But again, what of housing, clothing, transport etc? Could Hobbits really adapt to serve the physical and cultural needs of men, be it in Bree or Dale? I would have thought the Dwarf market was more obvious in theory, but the needs of Dwarves for such things were not as apparent, being masters of many a craft themselves. The other factor is, Hobbits mostly worked for themselves and their own needs. I don't think the equivalent of many companies/organisations existed in the Shire.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Pipeweed and beer trades, and perhaps food, were the chief international trades that the Shire boomed on economically. But again, what of housing, clothing, transport etc? Could Hobbits really adapt to serve the physical and cultural needs of men, be it in Bree or Dale? I would have thought the Dwarf market was more obvious in theory, but the needs of Dwarves for such things were not as apparent, being masters of many a craft themselves. The other factor is, Hobbits mostly worked for themselves and their own needs. I don't think the equivalent of many companies/organisations existed in the Shire.

Probably not. But what evidence of companies do we have in the rest of Middle Earth? Remember that the first company to issue stocks in the world was the Dutch East India Company, and that wasn't established until after the Renaissance, in 1602.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Probably not. But what evidence of companies do we have in the rest of Middle Earth? Remember that the first company to issue stocks in the world was the Dutch East India Company, and that wasn't established until after the Renaissance, in 1602.

Michael Delving was a museum that existed in the Shire. In Bree, we come to the Prancing Pony. In Dale we have the Lake Town network. Just a few examples of equivalants to organisations. Not quite up there with Wall Street or Liverpool Street, but companies did exist in Middle Earth.

[Rumil]

I think the Shire (and Bree?) exported a fair bit of food to the Dwarves, who weren't intertested in, or suited to, farming. No doubt this was traded for metalwork, coinage etc. remember the silver pennies?

I guess the main customers must have been the Blue Mountain dwarves, though dwarves from 'the east' (ie Erebor and the Iron Hills) were passing through Bree, it seems a long way to transport ordinary foodstuffs (salted meat etc probably so as to be non-perishable) when they could get supplies through Esgaroth.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Michael Delving was a museum that existed in the Shire. In Bree, we come to the Prancing Pony. In Dale we have the Lake Town network. Just a few examples of equivalants to organisations. Not quite up there with Wall Street or Liverpool Street, but companies did exist in Middle Earth.

I wouldn't mix together the notions of traders, guilds, and actual companies.