Who was the old man?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

Whilst constantly trying to prove me wrong, I don't see a lot of proof for you being right.

I'm sorry that you're taking it that way. I'm considering your ideas but checking against what is known. I mean nothing personal, and note below where you show my thinking to be addled.

Ok, so I admit the idea with the wraith was a bit stupid, but can you provide me with proof that Saruman had a good reason to run along, say "boo!" to the horses and run along again without using his voice on the travellers or questioning them.

How about this, which is more of the quote that I had supplied earlier?

Originally Posted by Gandalf the White

His <Saruman's> thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Theoden, Lord of the Mark, should by it and learn of its power? That is the danger that he sees, and he has fled back to Isengard to double and treble his assault on Rohan

As you say, we can speculate about that which is not clear, which is to me, "Why didn't Saruman think to question these Three that were so near the battle?" Good question, and we can think of reasonable answers.

That said, it was Saruman that appeared - no question, at least to me.

He needed to know what had happened to the Ring, it was a question that was on his mind as seen in some of the quotes above, so why would he not try to find out something from these three guys, they were after all suspiciously close to the place the Orcs were defeated.

Again, I think that he may have thought (we are talking about a literary character here ) that these Three didn't have much to do with the battle, as it was clear the work of the Rohirrim, who left spears, etc.

I am sure Saruman had no idea the Ents would have revolted, you see that clearly in the book.

You got me there; that wasn't well thought (and thank you for bringing it to my attention ).

[Morthoron]

Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.

Please, resume your arguments.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on the limited information supplied (basically from Gandalf), it was Saruman. Everything else is conjecture, which is fine I suppose; but looking at the evidence, nothing else makes sense. It was not a 'shadow' of Saruman, but his actual physical manifestation, because the horses were driven off. Unless, of course, the horses were 'spooked' by a spook.

Please, resume your arguments.

Perhaps it was the spirit of Saruman, the very one that had bewitched Theoden, and on the way back to Isengard having achieved what evil it required. Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...

Originally Posted by alatar

And we know how closely that fit Tolkien's works...

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk. What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

One cannot rule out that Saruman could spirit walk.

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?

What else was it that the Men of Rohan thought they saw of Saruman wondering their country, but never getting a sniff of him truly? For Saruman to physically walk the lands of Rohan alone would bear the risk of him being captured or killed, and I wager that Aragorn would have caught him in the dark, be it in a wood or not.

I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:

Once I do not doubt that he <Saruman> was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he has plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue's task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went.

Friends don't let friends spirit walk.

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why not? How would you back up such a claim when some nitpicking cynical skeptic..for instance, someone like me ...asked how you arrived at such a declaration?


I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

To quote Gandalf the White:

Friends don't let friends spirit walk.

Anyway, like I'm been saying, we can speculate on things, but we need to have some evidence from which to extrapolate.

One should not rule out a possibility unless it can be proved impossible! Could the power of Saruman be measured to such an extent as to rule out a relatively basic operation as creating a spirit of himself in other lands?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Perhaps it was the spirit of Saruman, the very one that had bewitched Theoden, and on the way back to Isengard having achieved what evil it required. Though this theory reminds me very much of the film more than anything.

Please provide textual evidence that the 'spirit' of Saruman bewitched Theoden. According to Unfinished Tales, Tolkien ascertains that Grima poisoned Theoden, and then Wormtongue used his influence on the drugged king to further Saruman's interests in Rohan. I believe you are having yet another movie moment.

Originally Posted by alatar

I completely disagree. It wasn't until a few months or days before these days that Theoden would have taken action or permitted any action against Saruman - if he ever would, especially when he was still a thrall of Wormtongue. And what evidence do we have that Saruman non-physically wandered the land, and no one was the wiser? Sure, he spied out secrets, but he had time and help in doing so.

I agree with your assumptions. Theoden, under the influence of Grima, forbade any action against Saruman, even though in September of 3018 Gandalf had sought an audience with Theoden (which was at first denied), and he eventually told the king that he had been held captive by Saruman in Orthanc, but Theoden was incapable of making decisions and deferred always to Grima.

After Theodred's murder (Saruman sent the force of orcs to the Fords of Isen with strict orders to kill Theodred), Erkenbrand assumed control of Rohan's forces and sent word to Meduseld for more troops, but he was denied by Theoden (at Grima's insistence). In essence, thereafter Eomer basically broke a royal edict by attacking the Orcs who held Merry and Pippin captive. He was then arrested on Grima's initiative for defying the King's orders.

It is obvious that anyway laying hands on Saruman's person would have been at least imprisoned, or more likely summarily executed by the order of Theoden. In any case, there is little evidence in the text that Saruman wandered about Rohan in spirit form, and if there is, I should like to see it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Personally, I find the HoME books interesting but not necessarily a good guide to what Tolkien's final thoughts in all matters might be, but there is a passage in "The Treason of Isengard" that has been influential in my thinking on this matter:

In the first draft Gimli asks, 'That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?' and Gandalf replies: 'If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. But as we seem to look so much alike that you wished to make an incurable dent in my hat, I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a vision>] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.]' Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalf's thought. There is clearly an important clue here to the curious ambiguity surrounding the apparition of the night before, if one knew how to interpret it; but these words are not perfectly clear. They obviously represent a new thought: arising perhaps from Gandalf's suggestion that if it was not Saruman himself that they saw it was a 'vision' or 'wraith' that he had made, the apparition is now to emanate from Gandalf himself. But of whom was it a vision? Was it an embodied 'emanation' of Gandalf, proceeding from Gandalf himself, that they saw? 'I look into his unhappy mind and I see his doubt and fear,' Gandalf has said; it seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see. I have found no other evidence to cast light on this most curious element in the tale; but it may be noted that in a time-scheme deriving from the time of the writing of 'Helm's Deep' and 'The Road to Isengard' my father noted of that night: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman).'

This does not answer the question for certain, of course, since it is Christopher's speculation concerning his father's intention, but the concept of the person seen at the fire being a "vision" created by thought was JRRT's, not his. In my own thought, if this was indeed a "projected" image and not a real person, and if it is indeed of Saruman rather than Gandalf (which, be it physical or illusory, JRRT seemed most inclined to identify it as Saruman; it shows up repeatedly in notes and drafts), it feels more logical (to my mind at least) for it to originate from Saruman rather than Gandalf. This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

[Inziladun]

CSteefel

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.

So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?

TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.