Invisibility

[Elmo]

Aye I would get up to all sorts of ill-deeds It would probably be best for me to turn into a wraith in the end.

[alatar]

No good could come of it. I think that what we are really talking about is complete anonymity - i.e. being able to do stuff without anyone knowing. Isn't that the best way to sort out the truly virtuous from the vile, to observe what he/she does when no one is looking?

Isn't that a good reason to create or 'discover' a god and/or internalized law that is always watching, even when no one else is? Keeps the id in place, it does.

[Selador]

First, my apologies for placing this in the wrong forum. But wow! What great responses!

I have to admit it, a Ring of Invisibility would definitely be on my Christmas List. I would use it, too. My hat off to those of you who could truly walk away from it. But for me - well, let's just say that I imagine that I wouldn't have any worries about money anymore. A bit of a moral dilemma, true, but along the lines of what The Might has written, I think it would be easy for me to justify just how underserving some of the wealthy are. I would be carefully selective in my victims, I think, but I would have few qualms about playing Robin Hood. The ring would make it a lot easier. And I would be generous. I'm quite sure of that. Truth is, besides a few creature comforts, I don't really want for much. But Robin does have to eat.

And if the train is already going across country anyway - or if the airplane is already flying off to venice - who am I really hurting by slipping into the empty seat, right?

And it would be nice to smite all my enemies. Well, maybe not smite, but at least embarrass the really jerky ones who totally deserve it.

And, eh ... well, maybe that's as much as I dare admit. For now. I'm censoring myself, Eomer.

I greatly appreciate all the responses. Thanks! Terrific post, Selmo! And Bêthberry, I am overwhelmed thinking about the details of the operation of the magic. It is fascinating to consider. And I love your observation that we are all wearing the Ring right now. So true.

What really got me thinking of this was that I was trying to get into Sméagol's head. How evil was he to begin with? How much did the Ring warp him? Should we pity him or condemn him? And when I put myself in his shoes, I suddenly realized that - if I'm honest - I have to admit that I would use the ring in many of the same ways he did - or in wicked ways of my own, justifying them with my own rationalizations. I'm not proud of that, but I didn't think I would be the only one, and it made me wonder if perhaps Gollum is too harshly demonized for motivations that are more common than many suspect.

[alatar]

Note that if I appear overly grumpy, it's not personal, but more likely due to the morning paper being late due to snow.

Originally Posted by Selador

But for me - well, let's just say that I imagine that I wouldn't have any worries about money anymore. A bit of a moral dilemma, true, but along the lines of what The Might has written, I think it would be easy for me to justify just how underserving some of the wealthy are. I would be carefully selective in my victims, I think, but I would have few qualms about playing Robin Hood.

How quickly it would take a hold of you. You already have started to justify theft. Note that I don't buy into the idea that taking from those that have and giving it to those without is a virtue. The rich learn nothing, the thief is still stealing and contributing nothing, and the poor need more than just a handout.

Plus whose to say who is deserving, and who is deserving of your redistribution services? Bet that there's some on the streets of Calcutta that would find you undeserving in your present state.

The ring would make it a lot easier. And I would be generous. I'm quite sure of that. Truth is, besides a few creature comforts, I don't really want for much. But Robin does have to eat.

So, is it really about helping the poor, or just a good excuse to take what isn't the fruit of one's labor and to give some of that away in order to appease one's conscious, which surely is starting to have doubts. And by being 'generous,' isn't that just the desire to hear the applause of the crowd...pride perhaps?

And if the train is already going across country anyway - or if the airplane is already flying off to venice - who am I really hurting by slipping into the empty seat, right?

Just the people owning the businesses who expend the extra fuel to move the vehicle plus the added (though unaccounted for) weight. Nothing's free, and isn't this attitude one you despise seemingly in the sweet 16ers?

And it would be nice to smite all my enemies. Well, maybe not smite, but at least embarrass the really jerky ones who totally deserve it.

Some of my 'enemies' I've learned are some of the saddest people on earth. I would like to pity them, but part of me is still human.

What really got me thinking of this was that I was trying to get into Sméagol's head. How evil was he to begin with?

Wasn't Smeagol a murderer before he got hold of the Ring?

How much did the Ring warp him? Should we pity him or condemn him?

If it were just the Ring, as you say below, I think we'd all fall and Smeagol would just be first among many. But he did murder first, and purportedly he ate babies after the Ring left him, so I'm having a real hard time pitying him.

And when I put myself in his shoes, I suddenly realized that - if I'm honest - I have to admit that I would use the ring in many of the same ways he did - or in wicked ways of my own, justifying them with my own rationalizations. I'm not proud of that, but I didn't think I would be the only one, and it made me wonder if perhaps Gollum is too harshly demonized for motivations that are more common than many suspect.

Agreed. There go I but for the help of Sam. And I appreciate your candor, and I hope that I've not come off as being harsh, as that's not my intent.

Though...we need a new metaphor when speaking of hobbit kind, as, well, they never wore shoes...

[Selador]

Originally Posted by alatar

How quickly it would take a hold of you.

Oh, heck yeah. I'm not afraid to admit it. I am wise enough to know that I should not use such a ring, but the urge to do good with it would be too strong for me to resist and would lead me down a crooked path. And the urge to do a little evil with it would not be completely irresistible to me. Like I say, I am not proud of it, but I know myself to be a less than perfect man.

So, is it really about helping the poor, or just a good excuse to take what isn't the fruit of one's labor and to give some of that away in order to appease one's conscious

No, it would really be about helping the poor, but not some vague poor-at-large, nor all the poor. My hope is not so grand as that. Rather I would make a small effort to help those good folk I know who in my opinion suffer unjustly in this too often unjust world. Those who if they were paid according to their virtue would live like kings, but have little prospect of such reward this side of heaven.

And I would not simply be taking from the rich-at-large either. When I wrote that I would be selective of my victims, I meant that I would be very reluctant to steal from anyone, and would have to consider the matter and the individuals very closely. But if, for example, you have a chance to save 'Tiny Tim' by filching a bit of silver from 'Mr. Scrooge' (who you feel certain is unlikely ever to miss it at all), well then, what is the greater good? Should Tiny Tim be doomed so that I can keep my consience clean? I guess I should just leave it in the ghosts' hands, but what if they never come?

Plus whose to say who is deserving, and who is deserving of your redistribution services? Bet that there's some on the streets of Calcutta that would find you undeserving in your present state.

I am certainly no better qualified than anyone else to decide who is deserving and who is not. No. And I am very aware of the fact that I might end up doing more harm than good. But then I have no other eyes and no other heart to judge with but my own, and everyone must do as they can and judge as they are able.

As for Sméagol, I am quite convinced that the Ring was behind the murder of his best friend, although I know that some don't believe it. And while I'm certain it is possible, I can't put too much store in the rumor of his killing babies, as it is only a rumor. It has always struck me as exaggeration. However, all of that is really beside the point. I've no agenda here. I am only wondering what others think. Considering Sméagol only prompted my question. I am not trying to mount any defense of him, and I am not telling anyone that they should pity him. I am only trying to get people to ponder the temptations of a Ring of Invisibility on a more personal level than they might have were they only to do so in the abstract, through the character of Sméagol.

And as for the airlines. Bah! I could lose a few pounds, sure, but I don't think they'll go bankrupt over me. I think I would enjoy the mischief and adventure of tramping more than the real financial benefit. But, hey, I never said I was a saint. Even Frodo nicked a few mushrooms in his day, eh?

[Selador]

And I do appreciate your candor, Alatar. I'm not offended by your comments. Besides, it all hypothetical, and really, I might do much better than I have theorized were I to be truly tested. So, don't think too badly of me.

[Strongbow]

I would do horrid, treacherous things if I had one.

This being said, I would walk away from it if it came to me. Truly. The temptation to wrong others would be too great. I don't think I could lower myself to the sort of sneakthievery that a ring like that would bring.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Selador

Oh, heck yeah. I'm not afraid to admit it. I am wise enough to know that I should not use such a ring, but the urge to do good with it would be too strong for me to resist and would lead me down a crooked path. And the urge to do a little evil with it would not be completely irresistible to me. Like I say, I am not proud of it, but I know myself to be a less than perfect man.

At least you're honest with yourself, which is healthy. Myself, I would quickly learn to call everything I did a virtue...as, well, I'm just sure that it would be.

No, it would really be about helping the poor, but not some vague poor-at-large, nor all the poor. My hope is not so grand as that. Rather I would make a small effort to help those good folk I know who in my opinion suffer unjustly in this too often unjust world. Those who if they were paid according to their virtue would live like kings, but have little prospect of such reward this side of heaven.

Life's not fair, and making it so is impossible, but I applaud your sentiment.

And I would not simply be taking from the rich-at-large either. When I wrote that I would be selective of my victims, I meant that I would be very reluctant to steal from anyone, and would have to consider the matter and the individuals very closely. But if, for example, you have a chance to save 'Tiny Tim' by filching a bit of silver from 'Mr. Scrooge' (who you feel certain is unlikely ever to miss it at all), well then, what is the greater good?

Ahh! Every time I hear those words I flinch - it's genetic - as that whole road of good intentions thing. Plus, I believe the worst of everyone, not because I'm a cynic, but because I'm an optimist.

Should Tiny Tim be doomed so that I can keep my consience clean? I guess I should just leave it in the ghosts' hands, but what if they never come?

True, but there's that Law of Unintended Consequences, and there's that slippery slope thing that old curmudgeons like me like to mention as well. Today it's Tiny Tim, tomorrow it's
G. Richard Wagoner, Jr.

I am certainly no better qualified than anyone else to decide who is deserving and who is not. No. And I am very aware of the fact that I might end up doing more harm than good. But then I have no other eyes and no other heart to judge with but my own, and everyone must do as they can and judge as they are able.

You'll never make it as a despot with that attitude.

As for Sméagol, I am quite convinced that the Ring was behind the murder of his best friend, although I know that some don't believe it.

You can find out a lot about what people think about Gollum here.

And while I'm certain it is possible, I can't put too much store in the rumor of his killing babies, as it is only a rumor. It has always struck me as exaggeration. However, all of that is really beside the point. I've no agenda here. I am only wondering what others think. Considering Sméagol only prompted my question. I am not trying to mount any defense of him, and I am not telling anyone that they should pity him. I am only trying to get people to ponder the temptations of a Ring of Invisibility on a more personal level than they might have were they only to do so in the abstract, through the character of Sméagol.

Excellent idea. Hope the discussion continues.

And as for the airlines. Bah! I could lose a few pounds, sure, but I don't think they'll go bankrupt over me. I think I would enjoy the mischief and adventure of tramping more than the real financial benefit. But, hey, I never said I was a saint. Even Frodo nicked a few mushrooms in his day, eh?

I hear ya. I would be lying if I said that I didn't have a mischievous side, but when taking the high road to the ivory tower, I tend to forget that part of me - makes being condescending so much easier.