The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

A Balrog versus Sauron would still be a tightly fought contest, and the comparably sourced dark power they would have used may have largely cancelled each other out.

You have no proof. It is merely conjecture without textual basis.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Was Sauron mightier than a Balrog without his Ring?

Doesn't matter. There was no dissent among the dark forces when Sauron temporarily assumed power in the 1st Age, nor in the 2nd or 3rd Ages when he was de facto Dark Lord. There was no no one who vied against Sauron for Morogoth's throne. All Morgoth's old minions fell naturally under Sauron's rule when Morgoth was banished for good.

One would think that evil, avaricious and power-hungry immortals would at least make an attempt to grab the throne (evil, after all, does not make fraternal and benevolent bonds between greedy and sadistic forces); this would be particularly true if the Balrogs felt they had a chance to defeat Sauron. Not surprisingly, they remained hidden and forgotten until Dwarves made the mistake of awakening one. Even then, the Balrog never left the confines of Moria to contest Sauron. Why do you think that is? The Balrog certainly had no fear of mortal Men, and he made quick work of the Dwarves. He could have left anytime he wished.

But the hierarchy of evil remained intact. It is rather like Sauron dutifully waiting for Morgoth while he was imprisoned. Per Tolkien, Sauron was just as evil as Morgoth by degree, save that he didn't hold dominion; however, Sauron, even if he wished to usurp Morgoth's throne (as evilly inclined folk are prone to do), he did not dare to do so. This wasn't merely servants blindly following centuries-old protocol like the Stewards in Gondor, it was naked power and aggression. Either you had it, or you didn't, or you waited.

Originally Posted by Mansun

I am proud of the majority of the forward thinking and creativity that this thread has encouraged.

Why thank you, I am quite touched by your magnanimity. It is quite amazing what resourceful folk can do with a subject such as this. It is a credit to all the posters here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It is quite amazing what resourceful folk can do with a subject such as this. It is a credit to all the posters here.

Indeed. The thread has even inspired some great artwork in #141.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Indeed. The thread has even inspired some great artwork in #141.

Yes, that is great, isn't it? I can hardly wait to see the illustrations for the Arwen vs. Eowyn jello wrestling thread. No what I mean? Nudge, nudge -- wink, wink -- say no more, say no more!

Ummm...sorry, had a Monty moment there.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Why thank you, I am quite touched by your magnanimity. It is quite amazing what resourceful folk can do with a subject such as this. It is a credit to all the posters here.

I am proud of the contributions of the majority of posters in this thread. Kind words should not be checked with cold counsel. It is clearly obvious that knobody can be certain of victory in any contest in Middle Earth.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is clearly obvious that knobody can be certain of victory in any contest in Middle Earth.

Yes, that is true perhaps, as luck and fate have a place in Middle-earth. But we are speaking with specificity regarding two Maiar who never battled each other before, nor is there any textual basis to indicate that they ever would.

Again, Morgoth's throne was there for the taking on a number of occasions. Why did Sauron assume leadership without a fight? It's not like Tolkien never wrote about kinstrife and civil war before (like among the Elves, the Numenoreans, the Arnorions or Gondorions). Why didn't a Balrog attempt to forcibly evict him? I am sure there was no allegiance between the two based on devotion or love (I can't see a Balrog being all warm and sentimental), so if a Balrog was as powerful as Sauron, why then was there no confrontation?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

. . . so if a Balrog was as powerful as Sauron, why then was there no confrontation?

Because Sauron dared not try to evict the Balrog from his realm, no more than he did not with Shelob. The lesson of caution is well learned. The Balrog itself was not created with a view to dominate the world as a leader, but as a servant subdued to the will of Morgoth alone. I would compare this to the Witch King, soley commanded by the will of Sauron. Also, how many top draw powerful baddies could Tolkein accommodate in the LOTR as main characters? Certainly not both the Witch King and the Balrog, in addition to Sauron?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Because Sauron dared not try to evict the Balrog from his realm, no more than he did not with Shelob.

Please present textual evidence to indicate Sauron wanted to evict either the Balrog or Shelob, or that he was afraid of them for that matter; otherwise, your argument is baseless. In fact, in the Two Towers I recall that Sauron was certainly aware of Shelob, but left her alone as she was useful in guarding the pass at Cirith Ungol. He even sent her unwanted prisoners from time to time. That doesn't sound like an adversarial relationship to me.

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Balrog itself was not created with a view to dominate the world as a leader, but as a servant subdued to the will of Morgoth alone. I would compare this to the Witch King, soley commanded by the will of Sauron.

The Balrogs were not 'created' to be subservient as you mistakenly imply. They were Maiar just like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman. One Balrog, Gothmog, led Morgoth's armies, so they had leadership capability.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were Maiar just like Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman. One Balrog, Gothmog, led Morgoth's armies, so they had leadership capability.

Gothmog is a different story. If we had a Gothmog vs. Sauron, I might be tempted to go for Gothmog as the winner.

[tom the eldest]

I found this old thread by coincidence,and i really interested in this type of thread.


The witch-king vs the balrog?witch-king get stomp.a maiar is far above a wraith,even the most powerful one.even if he use fellbeast,he still couldnt hurt the balrog.