Winged Beasts, a squandered resource?

[Rumil]

Hi Alfirin,

good points indeed!

It is unclear how many fell beasts Sauron owned, 10 at least and perhaps a few more 'spares' but I don't think it likely that he had hundreds of them stabled out the back of Barad-Dur (the Dark Tower's pigeon loft perhaps), though of course this is just my opinion!

They do appear to be the perfect command and scouting platforms for the Witchking's army, and the great value of fast aerial communication is nothing to be sniffed at either. As you say they provide the 'god-like-overview' that would be invaluable for the management of the siege of Minas Tirith, though possibly the Nazguls' vision could be obscured by the 'foul brown reek' or the smoke from the firepits, but its difficult to say with Nazgul.

I don't think its ever been convincingly established how many of the nine were at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. In a thread long ago there was much discussion and I worked it out as far as I could (in recompense for silly joking -fool of a Took), see here

Nazgul Spotting

Obviously 'number one' was there but Gothmog is at least a possibility, and perhaps (if he was a Nazgul) he employed his winged beast to assess the situation and throw in the reserves. I think the Winged beasts were too valuable for use in 'airborne assault' of Minas Tirith, as we know they are vulnerable to bows and arrows, and Gondor had various catapults etc (although they'd have to be very lucky to hit a maneuverable flying beast) - Gondorian ack-ack if you like. The Witchking used his steed to attack only a very high value target, ie Theoden, and could have swung the Battle had it not been for Eowyn and Merry.

Also I'm not so sure that the other Nazgul were so invulnerable, they were forced back by Aragorn with flaming brands etc and, unlike WK, they weren't prophesied to die 'not by the hands of man'. So it could have been risky both for the wraiths and their mounts.

Just seen Lal's post too, quite right! I have a feeling that the winged beasts were in some part inspired by the Stukas that JRRT must have seen in newsreels wreaking havoc on allied forces and civilians (naturally emphasized for propaganda purposes) during the blitzkrieg .

[Alfirin]

I for the most part agree that there would be some inherent dangers in use of the winged beasts as an attack force (most of that, as I said was predicated on a situation where Sauron did, though pre planning have hundreds or thousands of winged beasts at his disposal (i.e. he had though ahead and spend a good potion of his time in effor in his "hidden years" breeding winged beasts and incresing thier numbers.) but that theere would be advatages too, and that many of the difficulties, could be elminated, or at least minimized with careful planning. Winged beasts are indeed rather vulnerable to arrow fire, but that could be taken care of in two ways, you could keep the force high enough to be out of range of ground bowshot and still be able to shoot yourself as anything that falls from the sky eventually hits the ground (it might be hard to shoot accurately from that high up but in a piched meele you shoud still hit something (plus of course the Nazgul have the advatage of not really having a person to person care for thier troops and would likey be unconcerned with heavy losses due to "friendly fire"). With a little bit of pre planning you could also possibly get around the problem with the experident of equpping the winged beasts with light armor of thier own, as is understand was sometimes done to horses in the middle ages. It wouldn't neccarily have to be particularly heavy armor just something to block arrow and spear shots (this being pretty much the only weapon that could reach, unless the wraith in question was flying very low) fine chain mail (i.e. with rings small enough not to let an arrow through) around the belly region (maybe with a leather pad) might be enough. An no I don't know how easy it would be to get armor onto a winged beast, we dont see enough of them to really know how they behave to thier masters. (hey, for all we know, when not in battle a wraith may treat his winged beast as a man would treat his prized horse, giving it an affeconite rub on the beak, feeding it choice chunks of orc flesh as a treat, recieveing an affectionate lick from it long tounge.)

Oh, and not to be pedentic but isn't Gothmog the name of the Cheif Balrog? Do you maybe mean Khamul?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Oh, and not to be pedentic but isn't Gothmog the name of the Cheif Balrog? Do you maybe mean Khamul?

There was a second Gothmog, who marshaled Sauron's forces on the fields of Pelennor after the WitchKing's demise. This second Gothmog's race remains a mystery, as there is no back-history or further documentation from Tolkien as to what or who he was.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There was a second Gothmog, who marshaled Sauron's forces on the fields of Pelennor after the WitchKing's demise. This second Gothmog's race remains a mystery, as there is no back-history or further documentation from Tolkien as to what or who he was.

Oh I get it now, Like Grond the battering Ram is named after the same as Grond the mace. Sorry for the mistake .

Nerwen we actually seem to be on the same wavelength. I am aware that the Dark Lord did not have "hundreds of thousands" at his disposal in the real world, all thouse presumption were a "might have been" had Sauron done just what we both said, started the breeding scheme years if not centuries earlier. But you covered this too and ultimately the question of why it went bad. Sauron though of the beasts late, and had no time to truly use them well and work out all the wrinkes. Bad timing that's ultimatley the answer to the whole mess I asked, the beast were not used well becuse the was no time for them to be used well. Still, we can dream "what if"

[Lalwendë]

It makes you wonder if Sauron (or his agents) were searching out the last brood of FBs or if they just found them by accident. I should imagine Sauron was delighted as they must have been fairly pliable in terms of training, to get them ready so quickly for flight. And you simply cannot imagine any Dragon allowing you to ride on his back. So they were probably the only creatures capable of flight available for his use.

I still feel sorry for creatures like this, the last of their kind, wiped out in warfare, like the Mumakil.

Though those 'fell meats' still intrigue me, as there must have been a Hilary Briss operating in Middle-earth

[Morthoron]

Well, we know there must have been more than nine, because Legolas shot one down:

"This is Nazgul Two to Ground Control
I'm feeling very still,
And I think my Fell Beast knows which way to go.
Tell Khamul I love him very much..."

"He knows!"

"Ground Control to Nazgul Two your circuit's dead, there's something wrong.
Can you hear me Nazgul Two?
Can you hear me Nazgul Two?
Can you hear me Nazgul Two?"

"Can you...here am I sitting on my Fell Beast
Far above the world.
Middle-earth, I seek the Ring
On my pterodactyl thing."

Ummm...sorry, David Bowie moment.

[Boromir88]

Morthoron Anytime someone mentions David Bowie I think of Labyrinth, can't really describe whether it's a good feeling or bad though.

Also, it's not like these fell beasts were some huge dragon-sized/like creatures as the movies portray. I believe they're even smaller than eagles (or at most roughly the size of eagles)...I mean they were just really large vultures and they stank. Afterall, Legolas shoots one down with a shot and Eowyn decapitates another.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Morthoron Anytime someone mentions David Bowie I think of Labyrinth, can't really describe whether it's a good feeling or bad though.

I really liked Bowie up until 1976's 'Station to Station', but I have been indifferent to his career afterwards.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, it's not like these fell beasts were some huge dragon-sized/like creatures as the movies portray. I believe they're even smaller than eagles (or at most roughly the size of eagles)...I mean they were just really large vultures and they stank. Afterall, Legolas shoots one down with a shot and Eowyn decapitates another.

You know, I thought that also, until someone pointed out Tolkien letter#211, in which a correspondent named Rhona Beare asked Tolkien if the WitchKing rode a pterodactyl. Like any Elf, Tolkien answers both yes and no:

Pterodactyl. Yes and no. I did not intend the steed of the WitchKing to be what is now called a 'pterodactyl', and often is drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific mythology of the 'Prehistoric'). But obviously it is pterodactylic and owes much to the new mythology, and in description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geological eras.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

most of that, as I said was predicated on a situation where Sauron did, though pre planning have hundreds or thousands of winged beasts at his disposal (i.e. he had though ahead and spend a good potion of his time in effor in his "hidden years" breeding winged beasts and incresing thier numbers.

But that's the problem, Alfirin: there's absolutely no reason to think that was the case... in fact all we are told of the beasties points the other way:

A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed.

–RotK, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

So–

1. The winged beasts are very rare– in fact they're now extinct in the wild.
2. The Ringwraiths' mounts seem to be the first generation to be domesticated.
3. They probably all come from a single clutch/litter/whatever you call a family of adorwable widdle cuddly baby winged beasties.

So– why didn't Sauron use "hundreds or thousands" of winged beasts? He didn't have them. It's that simple.

A more interesting question is: why didn't he start his breeding program earlier, so that he would have hundreds by the time of the War?

Well, the passage suggests these things are "living fossils", something that had supposedly vanished long ago. If we assume that even the Dark Lord didn't know of them– or at least didn't realise they were still around– they must have been a chance discovery (by some evil minion, I suppose).

By the way– I hope I'm not being rude, but would you mind breaking up your paragraphs? They're hard to read.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

1. The winged beasts are very rare– in fact they're now extinct in the wild.
2. The Ringwraiths' mounts seem to be the first generation to be domesticated.
3. They probably all come from a single clutch/litter/whatever you call a family of adorwable widdle cuddly baby winged beasties.

So– why didn't Sauron use "hundreds or thousands" of winged beasts? He didn't have them. It's that simple..

Quite right. Likely the FB had originally been some small bird-like reptiles. Sauron fed them growth hormones , to make them reach such monstrous size.
And there is a passage in the Hunt for the Ring about the timing.

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste. - RC, p. 262-3

That means that the Fell Beast project was quite recent indeed. Actually, the nazgul had only 2-3 months to train! The FB project was under-developed, unfinished, because Sauron had to start the war and release the beasts in haste, earlier than planned. That's why, perhaps, nothing was yet devised to protect the beasts: especially their long thin necks. No wonder the nazgul tried to fly out of arrow range, having such rare and highly vulnerable mounts.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If we assume that even the Dark Lord didn't know of them– or at least didn't realise they were still around– they must have been a chance discovery (by some evil minion, I suppose).

It reminds me of this funny story about Fluffy the Fell Beast.
Fluffy-I and Fluffy-II

[Nerwen]

Thanks for the link, Gordis.