Tol-in-Gaurhoth LIV: The Council of Evil

[Strongbow]

Maybe I was just insAaAaAAane.

Oops.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Maybe I was just insAaAaAAane.

Oops.

Hehe. Silence, precious. The night ends in 25 minutes.

[Gollum the Great]

After a sleepless night spent mulling over the various issues, the Council gathered once again in the main hall. A terrible spectacle awaited them.

The chamber's one source of light, a huge iron lamp of sorts, hung in the centre of the room, over the table the Councilors sat at. And under this device, dangling from his own entrails, was Nogrod.

His eyes were burst from their orbits, his messy blood almost entirely coated him and the table, and his gaping jaw was smashed. And as the Council gazed incredulously at the gory spectacle a devil's voice laughed, but when they looked around they saw no one but themselves.


Luckily surviving:

Aganzir
Eonwe
Gwathagor
Isabellkya
Kath
Meneltarmacil
Sally
Shasta
Strongbow

Dead/gone:

Boro (inno)
Brinn (inno)
Ilya (inno)
Nogrod (inno)

[satansaloser2005]

Oh....my....

*looks at death list and lets her jaw drop to the floor*



(Back in a minute. Gonna do a quick vote tally, and I mean quick, as there weren't many votes.)

[satansaloser2005]

Votes from Day 1
Brinn-->Agan at 12:22pm
Eon-->Gwath at 3:48pm
Bowie-->Brinn at 4:50pm
Boro-->Izzy at 4:51pm
Agan-->Brinn at 4:57pm
Noggie-->Brinn at 5:00pm
Menel-->Agan at 5:06pm*
Ilya-->Brinn at 6:11pm*
Gwath-->Eon at 6:32pm*
Did not vote: Izzy, Kath, Sally, Shasta


Votes from Day 2
Sally-->Ilya at 2:24pm
Kath-->Agan at 4:31pm
Agan-->Ilya at 4:54pm
Bowie-->Ilya at 4:58pm
Ilya-->Sally at 4:58pm
Menel-->Gwath at 7:23pm*
Did not vote: Eon, Gwath, Izzy, Nog, Shasta

For those of you unfamiliar with my system, italicized villagers are known innocents and underlined villagers are known wolves, cobblers, bears, etc. Basically anyone bad.

*=vote did not count for some reason (e.g. past DL, improperly formatted, etc.)

Oh, and these are by my timezone, by the way. I'm too lazy to change them. The deadline for me is 5pm, so read the vote times accordingly.

EDIT: x'd with Miss Agan, and also added non-voters to my tally

[Aganzir]

I just realised (okay to be perfectly honest it was at least half Lommy's idea) the kills look like they were made not because of how the dead acted but what kind of reputation as players they have, what kind of impression someone gets about them when reading say old games or the grimoire, and suddenly Bowie jumps up on my suspicion list.

A newbie who's somewhat familiar to the game would just fit in there so nicely, especially if it was Shasta or Izzy who is the other wolf and he had to work alone for now.

Of course my theory is ruined if the kills are not made by the same team but apparently we can't know it.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I just realised (okay to be perfectly honest it was at least half Lommy's idea) the kills look like they were made not because of how the dead acted but what kind of reputation as players they have, what kind of impression someone gets about them when reading say old games or the grimoire, and suddenly Bowie jumps up on my suspicion list.

A newbie who's somewhat familiar to the game would just fit in there so nicely, especially if it was Shasta or Izzy who is the other wolf and he had to work alone for now.

Of course my theory is ruined if the kills are not made by the same team but apparently we can't know it.

It's possible. If you get rid of the most experienced players first, it would even out the playing field for, perhaps, a newer wolf team. I don't suppose Gollum would tell us if he handpicked or randomized the roles (and to be honest, I'd rather not know right now, as it would bias me a TON) but since Gollum is newer (at least to WW on here) it might have made sense for him to pick a couple newer players. At the same time, though, I'm not going to kill someone JUST because they're newer to the game and would fit the theory.

Why else would someone kill both Boro and Noggie, though? Perhaps an old opponent? As in, someone who is more experienced rather than less, and thus knows exactly how much of a threat those two can be. Still, though, I think someone's trying to make a statement by getting rid of the loudest players.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I just realised (okay to be perfectly honest it was at least half Lommy's idea) the kills look like they were made not because of how the dead acted but what kind of reputation as players they have, what kind of impression someone gets about them when reading say old games or the grimoire, and suddenly Bowie jumps up on my suspicion list.

A newbie who's somewhat familiar to the game would just fit in there so nicely, especially if it was Shasta or Izzy who is the other wolf and he had to work alone for now.

Of course my theory is ruined if the kills are not made by the same team but apparently we can't know it.

If I were covered in fur, why would I be confused as to when Night ended? Tut tut. You would think, with the way I search for knowledge, that I'd know such a thing as a Wolf or Bear.

[Aganzir]

Just a quick post I'm at Lommy's.

Ack what's this thing. I'm not quite happy with two of the scariest loudmouths dying in a row (especially as Nog wasn't even around yesterday) and I can't see any reason why someone would want to kill them this early. In my opinion this would point at rather inexperienced (or quiet) wolves who want to get rid of the most dangerous players at first.

So did the bear still choose not to kill or do the wolves and the bear both get a kill every second night?

I find it alarming there's still two players who haven't posted (okay Shasta has net issues but just where's Izzy?).

However due to only one kill a night we're not that badly off now.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, wolves, I hope you're happy. An hour and a half of nothing.

[Kath]

Seriously, 5 people didn't vote yesterDay? I could understand it on Day 1 as there was a lot of confusion over whether the game had started, myself included, but on Day 2 after an extra long Night to help people catch up ... that's just mad. Even Nog didn't vote and he's usually one of the keenest to be around at the deadline. Have we heard anything from Shasta and Izzy at all? I would like to hear from those who didn't vote yesterDay, whether it was due to RL busyness or something else it would be good to know at least.

I'm on my way to bed so I won't post much now but right now I'm liking the look of sally. She is actually being helpful I think rather than talking a lot and trying to look helpful.

I'll be back in the morning (RL) with some more thoughts.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kath

Seriously, 5 people didn't vote yesterDay? I could understand it on Day 1 as there was a lot of confusion over whether the game had started, myself included, but on Day 2 after an extra long Night to help people catch up ... that's just mad. Even Nog didn't vote and he's usually one of the keenest to be around at the deadline. Have we heard anything from Shasta and Izzy at all? I would like to hear from those who didn't vote yesterDay, whether it was due to RL busyness or something else it would be good to know at least.

I'm on my way to bed so I won't post much now but right now I'm liking the look of sally. She is actually being helpful I think rather than talking a lot and trying to look helpful.

I'll be back in the morning (RL) with some more thoughts.

....So I'm alone again?


Fabulous.

I think Shasta's internet's been funny the last couple days, but I don't know about the rest. I just wish people would talk.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Hey guys.

I'd have posted this in the admin thread, but then I thought "Hey, it's Day, technically I'm still alive, so I'm allowed."

Anyway, the long and short of the deal is that internet at my house is extremely sporadic right now (I get, perhaps, five minutes a day if that) and it will continue until we get someone out here to fix it (which will be Monday at the very earliest). So, here's the thing. I realize I haven't been participating. If you think I should bow out and ask Gollum to modkill me, that's cool. If you're fine with me sticking around like Gil sort of did last game, that's fine too. I'm cool with either option.

Tell me what you think (of course, I can't guarantee I'll be able to read it until tomorrow).

[Gwathagor]

I'm sorry I missed yesterDay. I was out skiing.

There isn't a lot of discussion to work with yet toDay, so I'll just do some solo pondering.

I have the same question as Aganzir: why has there only been one kill per night thus far? I can think of only a couple different possibilities. Either the wolves or the werebear might be waiting to let the other party flush out the hunter - this seems more likely to be a werebear tactic, since time is on its side, whereas the wolves really have to kill as much as possible if they are going to win - particularly since there's only two of them. It's also possible that the werebear (I find it very unlikely that BOTH wolves could have forgotten their kill BOTH Nights in a row - at least one of them would surely be around to send in a kill choice to the mod) might have skipped its kills as a misdirection or through neglect. This makes the most sense to me. The bear is probably either someone like Shasta or Isabellkya, who I believe are the low posters so far, or someone trying to make us think it's Shasta or Isabellkya.

If this wasn't helpful to you, sorry. It was helpful to me.

[Meneltarmacil]

OK, so the traitors have killed Nogrod and Boromir88 thus far, which brings me to an interesting conclusion.

We have somebody who knows which innocents are troublesome and which aren't. Someone intelligent and experienced is probably working against us, driving us into confusion by hitting our best and brightest.

With this information, I find Kath to be the most capable of carrying this sort of plan out. She's been around many werewolf-plagued villages here and is likely familiar with people's playing styles. I don't have the time for it now, but later toDay I will look through her posts and put up an analysis of her behavior.

[Meneltarmacil]

I've gone through Kath's posts, sparse as they are. The only one of substance was near the end of Day 2, and aside for some strangeness in backing me on my misguided ideas about Aganzir, I can't find anything that jumps out as suspicious. She does have a good point toDay about other experienced parties; I'd forgotten just how long they'd been around due to my long absence.

[Eönwë]

There isn't really much I can say about other people, as I'm feeling the same way about most of them. Just two things to note:

-Aganzir- She was starting to look more suspicious in my mind, but if she really is seriously considering voting Sally then I think she's innocent, as she will be only loud player left (other than Strongbow), and people will start looking at her more closely (there's not really much of a choice).

-The Gwath-Strongbow thing. I assume it was just because Gwathagor was the only one there at the time. And because we have such quiet days, people are just picking (pecking probably fits it better) at any little thing others have said until it starts getting a little violent. And then they suddenly stop. So I'm not suspecting any of you much more, but Gwathagor stays where is on my suspicion list and Strongbow goes down two- I'm looking at you more carefully now.

edit: I do think Gwath has a point, though- he just overreacted a little.

Just clarifying and fixing spelling mistakes

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by sally

I honestly don't mind people suspecting me -really, I don't, it's part of the game- but I don't like that I'm usually suspected for no reason.

Trust me I know the feeling.

Kath, I don't know why but I think sally reminds me more of a bear than a wolf... And I know I should go find some evidence but it's difficult because this is so irrational. Well let's see what I can do while I'm here.

Bowie it was just a theory. If you're ready to vote yourself because of it, you're overreacting.

Also, since your comment about players saying they're active ie innocent was quite clearly directed to me, I ask you to point out where I've used my activity as an argument for my innocence. I have used it as an argument for not bothering to post but that's all. Certainly not everybody but too many are so quiet it feels a bit frustrating to sit online the whole day.

In my experience here on the Downs posting much nonsense doesn't help give an active impression. It requires some actual substance.

Also, for one posting only serious analysis you have surprisingly many two-liners, Bowie. I don't like being accused of posting not entirely necessary posts by someone who isn't that much better off himself.

In sally's defence I must say she always posts the vote counts. They can be useful if someone bothers to take a look, or then not.

I agree with Gwath about Bowie's threat. We have two options: either to take your word on it and trust in your innocence, or actually lynch you to check. If you don't have that much suspicion against you it's not very likely we bothered to lynch you yet. So no I'm not taking your threat seriously. You could be bluffing very very easily.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Trust me I know the feeling.

Kath, I don't know why but I think sally reminds me more of a bear than a wolf... And I know I should go find some evidence but it's difficult because this is so irrational. Well let's see what I can do while I'm here.

Bowie it was just a theory. If you're ready to vote yourself because of it, you're overreacting.

Also, since your comment about players saying they're active ie innocent was quite clearly directed to me, I ask you to point out where I've used my activity as an argument for my innocence. I have used it as an argument for not bothering to post but that's all. Certainly not everybody but too many are so quiet it feels a bit frustrating to sit online the whole day.

In my experience here on the Downs posting much nonsense doesn't help give an active impression. It requires some actual substance.

Also, for one posting only serious analysis you have surprisingly many two-liners, Bowie. I don't like being accused of posting not entirely necessary posts by someone who isn't that much better off himself.

I overreact because I am absolutely innocent. I am aggressive because I am absolutely innocent. I will continue to be aggressive and will continue to overeact until I am lynched or nightkilled. I am not going to pull any punches when it comes to suspicion towards me.

The "active therefore innocent" comment is not directed at you, and I'm sorry that it came out that way. It is me merely being purist about that sort of thing. (Where I first played mafia, you couldn't wish the mod a happy birthday without being accused of lurking and being in the mafia. In fact, I was lynched once because of it.) If I stepped on your toes, Agan, I'll put Band-Aids on them myself.


x'd with Gwath and Agan

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
sally. I'm so sorry dear, I can't help this.

INNOCENT
Gwath is the one I'm actually feeling the best about for the time being.
Eönwë is the other one. I'm not quite as sure as with Gwath but I find no reason to be worried about him either.
Menel looks rather innocent again now that the flip flopping issue was cleared.

NEITHER
Kath. I seem to disagree with her on so many things I can't trust her but I'm not willing label her as Guilty yet, though. I might want to check her posts later.
Bowie. Earlier he seemed innocent enough but I don't know anymore. He's somehow a bit jumpy to defend himself, and his last suggestion to vote himself really looked overreactive to me. I don't know how much I should put down on his relative newness but he's one I might consider voting for later on.
Shasta. I have nothing against keeping him alive. However if your net doesn't get fixed soon is there any chance you could use computer in, say, a public library?
Izzy. Dunno what should be done with her. If she's not the bear, is there any chance the bear would want to be nice and just kill her off, at least if there's no way we could get a word to her? I suppose our hunter is normal in the way s/he doesn't have any special killing abilities unless s/he's attacked?

edit: xed with Bowie

[Aganzir]

No problem, I just interpreted it that way because no one else had been talking about their activity recently. Besides I wouldn't have been offended by it, I just wouldn't have liked that kind of argument against me.

You could also overreact & be aggresive because you're guilty. There's no way we others can know it. Also, if you're innocent, the best way you can help find the baddies is not making everyone concentrate on you.

[Aganzir]

By the way I just realised ordos are a minority now... There's nine (or seven or eight, however you wish) people alive, two of whom wolves, one bear, and two gifteds.

I try to read through the thread yet again and see if I can find anything that should make me suspicious of sally. Then I want to look through Kath's posts if I only have time.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

No problem, I just interpreted it that way because no one else had been talking about their activity recently. Besides I wouldn't have been offended by it, I just wouldn't have liked that kind of argument against me.

You could also overreact & be aggresive because you're guilty. There's no way we others can know it. Also, if you're innocent, the best way you can help find the baddies is not making everyone concentrate on you.

I don't think your activity is a ploy, and that'll come through in a list post, which I'll do...soon?

What you may not understand is that I am trying find baddies. I'm drawing them out, to see how they reason through my un-reason. Because that's the only way we're going to be able to find them, especially in a quiet game like this. To make ludicrous, outlandish statements to see how others react to them. I have a feeling that someone might have bitten, and it was Gwath who did - he reacted in a way I did not expect. I could not trap him, and he passes that test. Now, I have to spend some time thinking up another Mad Hatter scheme and see who'll bite this time.

(I'm still serious about the self-lynch though. Don't push me too hard.)

x'd with Agan

[Aganzir]

But it's also a possibility you have to bear in mind that an innocent reacts to something weird. Especially in this quiet a village where it may be hard to find some concrete evidence it's too easy to start grasping at straws. Besides, had I been here, I would have reacted pretty much the same way as Gwath.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

I

What you may not understand is that I am trying find baddies. I'm drawing them out, to see how they reason through my un-reason. Because that's the only way we're going to be able to find them, especially in a quiet game like this. To make ludicrous, outlandish statements to see how others react to them. I have a feeling that someone might have bitten, and it was Gwath who did - he reacted in a way I did not expect. I could not trap him, and he passes that test. Now, I have to spend some time thinking up another Mad Hatter scheme and see who'll bite this time.

Oh wow, I just saw this. Interesting.

[Aganzir]

Shame on you whoever killed Boro, reading through day 1 made me miss him!

Anyway if anyone mentioned sally on day 1, it was just stuff like 'where is she?'.

Ha now I actually remembered one thing I had against sally. The seeming randomness of the kills. I can remember an evil sally killing whoever she wants without really caring what they are, killing more on principle than because of what the dead have done during the day. That would fit at least the Nog kill, and to some extent also Boro.
This was the first actual thing that made me suspect sally but then I forgot all about it.

Apart from me, the only one who actually mentioned sally yesterday was Ilya, who said she found her assertions that Nog wouldn't have killed Boro weird. I think she had sally more or less mixed up with me there because I kept saying it much more than sally.

I repeat it once again, but sally seems to be making too much of an issue about the kills. I mean, there are dozens of different options so I'm not sure how much speculation helps us solve anything. However if I speculate myself, I do it mostly just to get my head cleared so I'm not sure how valid a reason that is.

Originally Posted by sally

Why else would someone kill both Boro and Noggie, though? Perhaps an old opponent? As in, someone who is more experienced rather than less, and thus knows exactly how much of a threat those two can be. Still, though, I think someone's trying to make a statement by getting rid of the loudest players.

Today the only one who talked about sally before me was Kath who said she was liking her for now because she actually looked helpful instead of trying to look helpful.

I don't know if I'm just getting paranoid but if sally's a wolf, Kath might be one as well. Because of their interaction. Because of how Kath tries to explain why she wants me to give reasons.

Originally Posted by Kath

Is there any particular reason you would want to lynch sally apart from a bad feeling Agan? Because I'm getting pretty much the opposite feel on her so I'd like to know where your suspicion of her has come from.

Originally Posted by sally

I just can't do anything right in these games, can I?

I'm not overly fond of the look of this comment. If sally's a wolf this would be a reasonable thing to say; it might scare off some suspecters. An innocent sally could say it as well though if she was tired of getting suspected for no reason, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't like it.

Sally you know that I'm going to be terribly awfully sorry if we lynch you now and you turn out to be innocent.

After suspicions against sally had started to pop up, Bowie made a nicely empty statement about her:

Originally Posted by Bowie

Sally isn't very much better. I don't really see the use in posting vote counts at this stage, because of the general lack of votes. I can't be sure if it's a ploy to legitimize yourself, but I'm not going to point any fingers until I see more...anything, really.

So he can decide later if he wants to vote for her or not and can justify his decision based on that post.

Okay so that's it. Quite little interaction with sally. I still couldn't find anything more in her posts that looks very suspicious to me. It's just the feeling.

But don't worry; Lommy once said (when talking about Nog) that when a player gets too good, the only way to spot them is the bad feeling since they rarely leave any obvious wolf traces anymore.