Absolute Good in Lord of the Rings

[The Might]

So, I guess we must accept that what Tolkien defined as good is good, as davem well points out above. And this goes for all the characters, some better, some worse.

In the case of Eru though I still feel we must make a distinction. Why is Eru to be regarded as a character if Tolkien clearly says he is not? He is the Christian God, absolutely good, meaning that in this case the realms of our real world and Tolkien's Arda intersect with God as the lowest common denominator (sp?). Meaning that all the things that Tolkien believed to be good, as a consequence of his religious upbringing are the same things that would be good in Arda as these rules all come from the same God.

I think that in this case a discussion crossing the barrier of Tolkien's works would again be in order, but unfortunately forbidden. One could wonder now if the rules set by God in real life are good (ok, not directly, but by Jesus and others in his place), and then consider that the same rules apply to Arda as well as coming from the same God.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Might

make a distinction. Why is Eru to be regarded as a character if Tolkien clearly says he is not? He is the Christian God, absolutely good, meaning that in this case the realms of our real world and Tolkien's Arda intersect with God as the lowest common denominator (sp?). Meaning that all the things that Tolkien believed to be good, as a consequence of his religious upbringing are the same things that would be good in Arda as these rules all come from the same God.

Eru cannot be the Christian God - at most he could only be Tolkien's own, personal (though informed by his Church's teaching) understanding of God. Further, what Tolkien is attempting to do is show how 'his' God would behave in the context of events in M-e - which events are Tolkien's own invention. Now, an old school Catholic & a modern day Quaker would both claim to worship God, but would, I suspect, have a completely different view on how that God would respond to the behaviour of the Numenoreans.

Thus, it seems to me too simple to argue that Eru = the Christian God, only that Eru, in his thoughts/acts within Middle-earth, does what Tolkien believed his God would think/do. Hence, Eru can only be considered a 'character' because M-e is not the Primary world. The other thing to keep in mind is that all the characters do what Tolkien 'tells' them to do - the Numenoreans 'sinned' precisely when & how Tolkien made them, & Eru responded to that 'sin' in exactly the way Tolkien chose him to. If God had been running things we may have had a 'Jonah' turn up & bring them all to repentance. The Numenoreans died because Tolkien had them misbehave & didn't give them any real desire to repent. And Tolkien did this for artistic reasons - everyone, from Eru 'down' is a character Tolkien manipulates for artistic reasons. Tolkien could not know what God would do in the situations he created in M-e - one could argue that by having his Numenorean characters so stubbornly commit to such inhuman behaviour he creates a situation where his 'God' character has no option but to zap them to atoms. But this is the point - LotR is not an allegory, let alone a 'parable'. It is a work of art, with no more hidden or underlying 'meaning' than the reader gives it. In the Primary world humans may or may not have free will (I'll avoid the philosophical tangent) but in M-e only Tolkien has free will, & his characters do what he wills them to do (however much he may claim to be attempting to 'discover what really happened' the truth is that 'what really happened' in M-e is what Tolkien decided worked best). He wrote a work of fiction which 'reflected' the primary world in some ways, but it was his world & its inhabitants were his to control.

Of course, if one's own concept of God corresponds to the character Eru one may not see things in that way, but not everyone (religious believer, or merely 'cultural Christian' like myself) will find Eru to be in any way like the God they worship (or like the God concept they have inherited as a result of growing up in a culture shaped & determined by Christianity).