Coincidence? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-08-2009, 04:38 PM

Yes, indeed; it's interesting that actually all stones of some importance in LotR&co, at least the ones I can think of, were black. But as for the Black Stone hypothesis... well, I cannot say if Tolkien would be one to do that; from just what I know, I would not consider it impossible. And maybe more probable connection in the case of Erech, for example (which was a cultic site by itself). In any case, it sounds nice as an idea.

The Might · 01-08-2009, 06:09 PM

Oh yeah, true! Totally missed the Erech stone...

The problem is that whilst the people in the area thought it had fallen from the sky, Isildur had actually brought it from Numenor.

How it had come by to exist in Numenor is unknown, of course it also may have been a meteor, but in the case of Eol's swords we know it for sure.

Still, nice ideas!

Beregond · 01-08-2009, 06:27 PM

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

Inziladun · 01-08-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beregond

Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place.

You know, I've considered that myself. I wonder if it merits a new thread.

Alfirin · 01-09-2009, 06:44 AM

Islamic tradition isn't the only one that ascribes special powers to the metal of meteroites. There is a long tradtion in folklore, Eastern and Western which states that the metal of meterorites (called "thunderbolt iron") has varios mytical and magical properties, and weapons made of this iron are believed to have magic powers as well. In some versions of the Arthurian legends, Excalibur is made of thunderbolt iron. Since a healthy vein of western folklore runs through Tolkein's work, maybe thats where he got the idea. Of maybe he read Lord Dunsay's The King of Elfland's Daugher at some point which also features a thunderbolt iron sword.

The Might · 01-09-2009, 10:28 AM

Hmmm good point there Alfirin, I was not aware of that and under the circumstances of Tolkien's studies it does seem to be a lot more plausible that actually he had been considering the European legends about meteorites when he thought of Eol's story.

And yes, the black stone of Erech does intrigue as after all it was nice, black, round and shiny but it wasn't a palantir, just a stone in the end. Maybe Isildur liked shiny rocks?

Beregond · 01-09-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

And yes, the black stone of Erech does intrigue as after all it was nice, black, round and shiny but it wasn't a palantir, just a stone in the end. Maybe Isildur liked shiny rocks?

He had a history of hanging on to shiny objects rather longer than was advisable.

Boo Radley · 01-29-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Islamic tradition isn't the only one that ascribes special powers to the metal of meteroites. There is a long tradtion in folklore, Eastern and Western which states that the metal of meterorites (called "thunderbolt iron") has varios mytical and magical properties, and weapons made of this iron are believed to have magic powers as well. In some versions of the Arthurian legends, Excalibur is made of thunderbolt iron. Since a healthy vein of western folklore runs through Tolkein's work, maybe thats where he got the idea. Of maybe he read Lord Dunsay's The King of Elfland's Daugher at some point which also features a thunderbolt iron sword.

You beat me to this idea by a mere... three weeks, actually.
This is how I would reason it out.

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-29-2009, 07:45 PM

However, whatever significance the Stone of Erech held for the Exiles, they were of the Faithful, and certainly wouldn't have brought a Melkorian cult-object or something with evil associatons, which clearly seems to be the case with Eol's blades.

01-08-2009, 04:38 PM	#1
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Yes, indeed; it's interesting that actually all stones of some importance in LotR&co, at least the ones I can think of, were black. But as for the Black Stone hypothesis... well, I cannot say if Tolkien would be one to do that; from just what I know, I would not consider it impossible. And maybe more probable connection in the case of Erech, for example (which was a cultic site by itself). In any case, it sounds nice as an idea. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-08-2009, 06:09 PM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Oh yeah, true! Totally missed the Erech stone... The problem is that whilst the people in the area thought it had fallen from the sky, Isildur had actually brought it from Numenor. How it had come by to exist in Numenor is unknown, of course it also may have been a meteor, but in the case of Eol's swords we know it for sure. Still, nice ideas! __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-08-2009, 06:27 PM	#3
Beregond Playful Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,251	Off topic, but I have to express this: why would Isildur carry a massive rock from Numenor when surely there were more important things to transport? And then they just left it in a rather out of the way place. __________________ "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."

01-09-2009, 10:28 AM	#6
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Hmmm good point there Alfirin, I was not aware of that and under the circumstances of Tolkien's studies it does seem to be a lot more plausible that actually he had been considering the European legends about meteorites when he thought of Eol's story. And yes, the black stone of Erech does intrigue as after all it was nice, black, round and shiny but it wasn't a palantir, just a stone in the end. Maybe Isildur liked shiny rocks? __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-29-2009, 07:45 PM	#9
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	However, whatever significance the Stone of Erech held for the Exiles, they were of the Faithful, and certainly wouldn't have brought a Melkorian cult-object or something with evil associatons, which clearly seems to be the case with Eol's blades. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

01-09-2009, 06:44 AM	#5
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Islamic tradition isn't the only one that ascribes special powers to the metal of meteroites. There is a long tradtion in folklore, Eastern and Western which states that the metal of meterorites (called "thunderbolt iron") has varios mytical and magical properties, and weapons made of this iron are believed to have magic powers as well. In some versions of the Arthurian legends, Excalibur is made of thunderbolt iron. Since a healthy vein of western folklore runs through Tolkein's work, maybe thats where he got the idea. Of maybe he read Lord Dunsay's The King of Elfland's Daugher at some point which also features a thunderbolt iron sword.