T-I-G LV Sing when you're winning

[Boromir88]

Ok, so who would want to target the phantom on Day 1.

Actually, I totally missed the Lovers thing. I thought the phantom was the seer. Turns out he was just the phantom. My bad.~Fea

I missed the lovers thing too, and now it makes sense why he said no Mac and no sally yesterday. But what made you think seer? I didn't see anything to suggest it. I would imagine if tp was a seer, he'd be out in the open, but he wouldn't make himself a target at night. Also, I doubt he'd draw that much attention about the cobbler. At least not the cobbler of this opera, who would be able to oust him to the wolves. That's my guess about it, I guess we should wait on tp though.

Sally - I've seen sally speak out strongly against tp being an early kill choice. She seems to generally enjoy keeping him around, at least for a couple days. The choice doesn't fit her. I also want to wait to hear some more from sally. I don't think her uncounted late vote should be a reason of suspicion, we're talking about missing the vote by a matter of seconds, and her last post you can tell she was in a rush. Her original vote for Nog, and then retract for Menel, should be looked into.

Lariren - well she's admitted to being completely terrified of him? Oh ok, but that's pretty weak. I have no guess as to what her thought process/style is yet.

Fea - she played a long with him yesterday, I forget who said it (tp maybe?) but she's perfectly capable of acting sweet and loving and then turning around, killing you at night. Similar to sally though, she just generally seems to like having tp around for a little while. I also ask, why not me last night (not to sound me-centered)? Fea was buttering me up as well.

Ilya - I'm sensing a theme here, because Ilya's even lamented about tp not being in villages before. Would she want to get rid of tp early?

Brinn - Somehow I don't see Brinn missing tp all that much, day 1 or day 5, wouldn't matter. Brinn's overall posting today makes me think she's innocent, but I could see this being a Brinn kill.

Kath - Same for Kath, I think she relishes for the chance to have killing power. She seemed to take delight in being able to get rid of me and Nogrod early, in our last stint, and I would expect the same if she had a chance of tp. I know when I have the power to kill, I look to get rid of Kath early, and now I sense the feeling is mutual.

Agan - Doesn't make sense as an Agan target early on. Unless tp was deemed a threat, but that could be said for anyone here. I haven't looked into Agan's posts too much yet, which is unusual as she usually makes a mark in me early. Her comment about laziness looks innocent, I can't picture Agan as a lazy wolf, but she hasn't been normal Agan. May I ask Agan, did your involvement in your last game wear you down a bit?

Gwath - Similar to Kath, his sig should explain it - that conniving, no good, yet brilliant werebear.

Shasta - The Shasta-tp fued seems to be well known. I can see tp being an early target for Shasta. But not for fueding reason, I picture Shasta to be far more calculating then getting rid of someone because of a fued. If Shasta is innocent, he'd want an innocent tp around, if a wolf, he'd want an innocent tp gone.

Strongbow - not sure about him. He's well read and got a great grasp on how people and things work. His cobbler post today looks earnest and honest, I don't have a grasp on him yet.

Macalaure - Kind of similar to Shasta, if a wolf, and if deemed a threat than I think he'd want tp gone fast. However, the way tp didn't want to see Mac (and sally for that matter) be lynched yesterday speaks towards Mac's innocence. Unless tp was targetted because the wolves thought he was the seer, but I'm not convinced that's why tp was targetted. Also, I'd imagine if Mac was a wolf, and believed someone to be the seer, he'd do a little more poking around to try to get the seer to let a hint slip.

Gollum - I have no idea about 'im.

tgwbs and Cailin - I put them together because for these two it's been so long since they've been here, I've forgotten a lot. Add on top of that, I could never get a good read on these two. See with tp, I expect ploys, traps, lots and lots of involvement, for good or bad I may be able to figure it out in a couple days. With Fea I expect chaos and plain out insanity. But for tgwbs and Cailin, I have no idea what you're going to get. The only way I've been able to spot a wolf Cailin was from the hunter's kill, and the only way I knew tgwbs was innocent was when he voted for himself.

That's what's running through my head, make of it what you will. There may not even be anything useful at all anyway. There are a couple variables that muddy it up. That is any critic would see tp as a threat, and thus know they would have to get rid of him sooner rather than later. How soon of would depend upon what they thought his role was...If they believed he was the seer they would want him gone right away, and with no Ranger in the way to stop it, they'd do it right away.

Edit: crossed with Lari and Mac

And Lari be my guest, I may not get to that until tomorrow - so there's your chance to get in something that hasn't already been posted 3 times

[Macalaure]

Cailineomer -> Nogrod

I still think this is probably not a suspicious vote, but I don't have a good picture of the two due to lack of posts.

Mac -> Menel
Nogrod -> Sally
Gwath -> Nogrod (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1)

Gwath takes his first-best suspicion and gets the bandwaggon rolling with it. Careless.

Shasta -> tgwbs (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1)

Said he will explain today. Why do I have the feeling his explanation won't satisfy us...

Wild man -> Fea (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1)

I don't really understand why the wild man narrowed himself down to Fea and Kath in the end.

Lari -> Ilya (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Ilya 1)

Solely based on her hunch. Ordos do that because they don't have any better. Critics do it to get away with a throwaway vote.

Menel -> Mac (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Ilya 1, Mac 1)
Fea -> Menel (Nogrod 2, Menel 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Ilya 1, Mac 1)

I find her vote less suspicious than Gwath's one, but not by much.

Boro -> Mac (Nogrod 2, Menel 2, Mac 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Ilya 1)

Fair reasoning, fair placement.

Brinn -> Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Menel 2, Mac 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Ilya 1)

The one bad black ugly stain on her white vest.

Kath -> Ilya (Nogrod 3, Menel 2, Mac 2, Ilya 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1)

Maybe the most innocent-looking vote of all, I'd say.

Sally -> Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Menel 2, Mac 2, Ilya 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1)

I highly doubt a critic would have made this vote. A very inconvenient spot in the Nogwaggon.

Ilya -> Strongbow (Nogrod 4, Menel 2, Mac 2, Ilya 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Bowie 1)

*goes to look for Ilya's picture in the encyclopedia next to "throwaway vote"*

phantom -> Menel (Nogrod 4, Menel 3, Mac 2, Ilya 2, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Bowie 1)
Boro -- Mac -> Menel (Nogrod 4, Menel 4, Ilya 2, Mac 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Bowie 1)

Saving Private Nogrod.

Aganzir -> Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Menel 4, Ilya 2, Mac 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Fea 1, Bowie 1)

The placement looks rather evil, but she was after him for a longer time.

Wild man -- Fea -> Menel (Nogrod 5, Menel 5, Ilya 2, Mac 1, Sally 1, tgwbs 1, Bowie 1)

Saving Private Nogrod II.

Sally -- Nogrod -> Menel

Not too little, but too late. Attempt to prevent double lynch. Pretty innocent.

[Macalaure]

Before I retire for today...

Suspicious
Fea
Gwath

Somewhat suspicious
Ilya
Brinn

Nowhere land
Shasta
Strongbow
Gollum
Cailineomer

Somewhat unsuspicious
Lari
Aganzir
tgwbs
Boro

Unsuspicious
Sally
Kath

Originally Posted by Boro

Also, I'd imagine if Mac was a wolf, and believed someone to be the seer, he'd do a little more poking around to try to get the seer to let a hint slip.

This is not really important now, but as a wolf, I would definitely not do that. I'd keep what I suspect for myself and get rid of the offender immediately at night without risking to have anybody suspect the same or, worse, leave a trail to myself by my behaviour. Only my fellows could convince me otherwise (which is why you lived past Day1 in our last village together ).

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Mac -> Menel
[...]
Gwath -> Nogrod (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1)

Gwath takes his first-best suspicion and gets the bandwaggon rolling with it. Careless.

You know, Mac, my vote isn't much different from yours in terms of its context and consequences. Yes, Nogrod already had one vote, but Menel hadn't even been making any weird passive-aggressive attacks against you (as he had towards me). If anything, you had less reason than I for your vote.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Boro

I can't see how the cobbler would be able to pass on info that xe didn't know xeself. (Did I use that properly?)

Xemself. But Wild Man glad gender-neutral pronoun spread.

Originally Posted by phantom

I will certainly post YouTube links though

Wild Man look forward to more of same.

Originally Posted by Fea

I thought the phantom was the seer. Turns out he was just the phantom. My bad.

This make Fea seem even more critic.

Originally Posted by Fea

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys?... Does the Cobbler/Spy get to find out the role of the person s/he spies on, or is that information given only to the Critics? Because if the Cobbler knows her/his marks, than there's an extra player on the side of evil who knows that who s/he may or may not be voting for is ordo.

Although Wild Man now thoroughly prejudice, this seem critic question to him.

Originally Posted by Brinn

In the post before, he said he wouldn't vote her. And then he does. Why the Legate 180?

Read again post 137. Wild Man not say definitely not vote Fea - Wild Man refer to previous thought process, Wild Man unable decide who vote out of Fea, Kath, Gollum. Then, Fea come purposefully talk in riddle again, cause more headache. Therefore Wild Man vote Fea.

Originally Posted by Brinn

About this whole "save Nogrod" thing...It seems that came up when his whole divo comment was brought up via secret code talk. Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

Wild Man not "qut". And no, Wild Man think Nog jest about divo. But Wild Man reason, post 192, "Wild Man not like Noggie-votes. Nogrod always like this, no?". Wild Man see no basis to Nogrod-votes.

Wild-Man strongly agree with following Boro sentiment:

Originally Posted by Boro

The origins of the Nogrod suspicion was based off some gut feeling of discomfort and Nog seems "off." Isn't that an even more generic reason, and I don't even care if it's Day 1, that's just baloney...

Originally Posted by Ilya

I kinda don't get Wild Man's suspicion of Brinn.

Film Man find Brinn hard to place. Originally he slightly suspect, then he think she slightly innocent (see continuum-post), now he neutral again.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I would like to say, however, that apart from one thing that he said that made me raise an eyebrow, my vote for TGWBS was mostly a gut feeling.

Thank you for lack of explanation.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Also, why does he think tp being around makes up for the double lynch? It's still a loss in numbers.

Simple. Phantom now function as known innocent, albeit no can vote. All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

Mac's vote for Menel yesterday reminded me of his prior wolvery and denial about how he ever made a "case" against Brinn. But after stating Day 1 concerns I backed off for the rest of the game, only to be completely manhandled by him the rest of the time. I spent many a night beating myself up for never following up. So, whenever I next saw Mac make a move I thought suspicious, I promised myself I would go through with it. I did, and if he's running me around in circles again, at least I followed through this time, and can feel better about it. Basically, my vote for Mac had no good reason other than to make myself feel better for a prior mistake.

Fea always suspects Boro, Boro always suspects me now, I always suspect Nogrod, Nogrod always suspects Gwath. Does anybody have a suggestion how to continue/close this chain?

Originally Posted by Gwath

You know, Mac, my vote isn't much different from yours in terms of its context and consequences.

The difference is that I took a look at everybody and chose Menel because he looked most suspicious (though that was not much, I admit). You didn't look at anybody but Nogrod and Lari, and your look at Nogrod went no further than his case against you.

Originally Posted by Gwath

It always takes me a couple of days to get into my WW groove.

You better speed that up.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

Huh the who? First, what fingerprint do I have on Nogrod's carcass? Second, all Boro said about me referred to a previous game and, objectively, that's really not something that should play a central part in ones suspicions (Boro's excluded).


Shasta, you can't announce to give reasons the next Day, then just state that it was gut feeling, and expect not to be suspected by me for that.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Funny, I x-posted with him with a post that seemed to be in a similar format...yet we came to completely different conclusions.

Our format! She sstole it from uss!

But completely different conclusions? As far as I can see, we only really differ on the evaluation of Sally...

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

and Lari, and your look at Nogrod went no further than his case against you.

Can you point me to it? Because I've gone through and I don't think he mentioned me once. I really don't think he had a case against me at all. Or do you know something I don't?

[Brinniel]

It's time for me to vote. I hate voting early, especially since while I do have suspects, none of them are really strong enough for lynching. Plus, there's still several players I want to hear more from. But it's already morning and I have yet to sleep.

I'll vote for someone from my top three suspects.

I'm going back and forth on Mac. Part of me finds him suspicious reading some of his posts, then I come across another and am not so sure. My hesitance makes me think it'd not be such a great idea to vote for him just yet. And anyway, I think I'd like to hear more from him.

tgwbs I'm still very suspicious of. Yet, his response to my questioning his vote for Fea makes me feel a bit better about him. Quite honestly, the main reason I'd rather not vote him toDay is because he's such an entertaining asset to the game and innocent or baddie, I think I'd miss him if he were to be lynched so early. If I still continue to suspect him later on, I won't hesitate to vote him...but for at least toDay I think I'll leave him be.

Which leaves Gollum. Part of me feels a bit guilty voting him because he said he wouldn't be around much due to RL, which is understandable. But he was around for a time, however brief it was. Of course he couldn't catch up that fast, but he could've tried to contribute more than he did and instead I think he underperformed. That sort of thing is just bothersome, but what I really find suspicious is that he abstained from voting at a time when he could've prevented a double lynch. It just doesn't make sense to me. And perhaps he can explain his reasons and even change my mind, but he still hasn't arrived and I cannot wait any longer. If Gollum does survive the Day, I hope he will make a stronger effort to contribute in the future.

So, without further ado:

++Gollum

There is a teeny tiny chance I may show up shortly before deadline if I can manage to wake myself up. But I wouldn't count on it. Seriously.

EDIT: Ooh, some X-posting

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mac

But completely different conclusions? As far as I can see, we only really differ on the evaluation of Sally...

Okay, maybe the word "completely" is exaggerating it, but we do differ on Gwath, Sally, Boro, and perhaps slightly on Aganzir and Kath (I don't think her vote is the most innocent). And of course, we're complete opposites when it comes to the matter of my vote. Also, you didn't exactly share what you thought of this "Saving Private Nogrod" act. Perhaps you stated your opinions elsewhere, but I'm not going to bother looking again through your posts at this hour.

Okay, now I really need to go to bed...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nothing wrong with calling a bit of attention to it (like we just did). I'm actually hoping it will be spotted by the Critics and Cobbler. The question is, what will they do about it?

I feel dumb, first of all. Noggie was tripping my radar and I completely missed this post. Of course, it's Phantom (and Fea), so I wouldn't have necessarily listened to them anyway but still. I should have noticed the context of Phantom's post and reread Noggie's with that in mind. Well, hindsight, as they say....

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I want to hear more from Mac before voting him.

Sally has said little of substance. Noggie gives more substance, but I find of what he does say, I tend to disagree with more. Of all the candidates so far, he's the one who gives me the biggest wolfish vibe. A feeling is not much, but it's all I can really offer. I don't have time to give it more thought, and I wouldn't mind at all seeing him lynched.

++Nogrod

Oh boy, I'm gonna be late to my appointment...

I can't really say a whole lot against this. I've had rushed votes as well (and will probably have another one toDay) so while it doesn't look good, I'll admit, I wouldn't condem her for doing this either.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Awwww.... did someone want to get rid of me?

Heh heh heh.

Eh, shaddup. *rolls eyes*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Yeesh... once I have to vote early and believe that you auditioners are smart enough to not do something terribly foolish, and then that.

*shakes head*

The phantom is immortal now and we have to end...*ahem* be enriched by him til the end? Oh... joy...


I have to apologise to Menel. Had I had more time and would have read your later responses to my vote, I would have retracted. You sounded very innocent there. Sorry.


To business.



Could you explain what you mean by "easy way out"?


Yesterday's voting:

Cailineomer's vote for Nogrod, while somewhat suspicious taken by itself, is probably not a critical one. Why would a critic want to get into trouble with one of the more persuading singers when there was not even an indication then that said singer will be eliminated? It would have been a move that could easily have backfired.
Gwath's vote for Nogrod and Fea's vote for Menel don't smell nice. Both are pushing a bandwaggon.
Brinniel's vote for Nogrod I don't like either. She pushes the bandwaggon with very little reason. Then again, a critic would have known that a Day1-lynching of Nogrod would have attracted interest, so would a critic not rather not have positioned herself in such a spot in a bandwaggon? Hmm..
What to do with Sally's vote? Of course every critic would love to see Nogrod lynched so early, but so much that they would risk their own neck for it by putting a vote in such a prominent space? Hardly. Her retraction looks innocent.
Boro's retraction for Menel is to save Nogrod, of course, but considering that he voted me before mostly because I voted Menel, it's a bit eyebrow-raising. Since obviously he was not happy about either choice, why didn't he at least try to bring up a third option?
Aganzir's vote for Nogrod is consequent - she suspected him for a long time. Not suspicious, unless her suspicions before were fabricated.
Wild man's vote for Menel is not suspicious either. He stated he liked to save Nogrod before.
I'll have a look at the other votes later if I think it might enlighten something.

An analysis of the attempted killing of the phantom would be interesting, but I'm sure tp can do that better than I. I'll leave that burden to him.

Is it? While we still have tp's input, we are still down one in numbers and innocent votes. Painting situation better than situation is be suspicious behaviour, wild man.

It was something completely different. Some of your points on the roles seemed so off to me that I thought you were an innocent trying to confuse the critics.

That's why I think in fact that it may not be Brinn. Would someone really do something that obvious? (Of course, I've made that kind of move as a wolf in another game, and it wasn't a slip so much as a temporary lack of sanity, so anything's possible.)

I want to think about who would have killed Phantom in more detail, but it's too early, so I'll have to get to it in the Night.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Sorry guys. I thought I was helping to prevent a double lynch. However I'm not entirely displeased with what has happened thus far (at least the phantom thing was rather funny), besides I would probably have continued to suspect Nog today anyway. However I have a harder time trying to see why Menel was killed. Apparently to save Nog from the gallows yes, but why was he so suspicious in the first place?


Don't know about that. I think his points against sally were not good. What's the sense in accusing someone of something they always do, at least this early?


I did but it was a thing I didn't take very seriously. Divo-Nog could say it, innocent Nog could say it, critic-Nog could say it.

I've noticed Lari's eagerness to agree on suspicions but I wouldn't lynch her because of it (at least yet) because she's new.

I'm getting more scared of Mac every time he posts. There's something that reminds me awfully much of the Mac-wolf I've seen.

The above comment reminds me of his I-told-you attitude (as in Other Minds and Hands, erm, almost two years ago when Boro I think almost got lynched all of a sudden - I don't remember the details; or in Scouring of the Shire vol.2 when people lynched an innocent probably Menel or Might). I don't know if he's always like that and I've just usually ignored it but those are the things I immediately connected his comment to.

edit: xed with Ilya

Indeed. He's a tricksy one, that Mac. That's, again, why he was at the top of my suspicion list yesterDay. He gives off some sort of vibe that he just knows too much, such as his "we can probably learn a lot from Phantom's death(ish) but I'd rather not comment on it" post. Loosely paraphrased, I know, and that in itself isn't too much of a big deal, but as a whole I'm getting a bit of a bad feeling from Mac still.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Oh great, we get to hear phantom talk for the entire game.

And if he doesn't count towards the tally, then it's really like he was killed...the only difference is that while the dead usually can't talk, he can. So when it comes down to numbers, we still had a loss last Night...am I right?

One thing: It's really bothering me that almost everyone is focusing on Nogrod's death alone. What about Menel? He often gets lynched early and I'm irritated to see it happen again. The sudden turn-around on him which resulted in a double lynch is just as suspicious. Especially these players who seemed to be so certain of Noggie's innocence, they contributed to Menel's lynching (some even retracting). And I will mention another reason I chose Noggie for my vote was because I hoped it'd prevent the lynching of Menel who was being heavily considered at the time. I know how it feels to die early several games in a row, and I don't think it was fair at all for Menel to be lynched so early.

Btw, what's so strange about Nogrod getting lynched on Day 1? It happened in Shasta's game and he was a werewolf. It happened in tp's game and he was a werewolf. So really if you go by record, lynching him on Day 1 seemed like a pretty good idea at the time...

Yeah, see the problem with Menel for me was how he justified his vote for Mac. If you'll notice my posts, I think Menel pretty innocent, but I found his vote (or rather his vote motivations) awkward enough that I was uncomfortable. However, Noggie was a bit more suspicious in my brain, not by much, and he was also ahead in the vote tally, so I wanted to push him ahead. Then the Menel-wagon started moving out and we were at risk for a double lynch again. Dang, was I frustrated.

I don't think I was around for those games, Brinn, but you make a good point. I'm not advocating the lynching of Nog on day one in every game, but he's tricksy, that one, and if I suspect him I'd rather not wait around to find out what he is. (Although I legitimately am sad that he's left so early, and now two games in a row. I'd say 'watch out Boro' but I'm afraid that I would be only too correct in my sarcasm.)

Originally Posted by Cailín

Good day, my pretties.

I am truly sorry about what happened to Nogrod and wish I had not voted for him. I already regretted it when I pressed that fatal Submit Reply button, but I was afraid to invoke the Mother Mod Goddess' wrath by retracting and casting another random vote. It was a foolish decision, especially since I still need to ask him a favour. My manly half was not please with the executive decision either.

(Eomer: "Kill Sally, she deserves it")

That's the longest I ever spent apologising for a vote (to Nogrod, not necessarily to my fellow contestants whom I care somewhat less about). This means I'm sincere.

Our Opera Ghost's reputation is apparently so divine that he actually became so. Interesting decision.

The most sensible person today seems to be Brinniel. I agree with her comments on the Menel-wagon. I'm sad he had to leave us, a great voice and marvellous talent.

Short and sweet. Not a lot to post for our lovely Cailin/Eomer. I'd like to see more from these two. Heh, and I love the little 'oh, and kill Sally while you're at it, darlings' bit. Very cute. *grins*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Short comment now. More to say later.



But Aganzir, we've been wolves together once: you know that, when evil, I give every effort to appear the exact same way I do when innocent...



*nod of approval*

Yes, and you're brilliant at it. Too brilliant, in fact, and from being your partner before I know just how dangerous you can be, little mister.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Simple. Phantom now function as known innocent, albeit no can vote. All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

Incorrect. Well, correct, as we all know he's innocent, but he doesn't count in the innocent tally. So yes, TGWBS, we are in fact down another innocent after last Night.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

Yes, but you have to remember that our dear Mac is a smooth one. In fact, that's why the littlest thing sets me off about him, because I've been in his pack before and know how clever he can be. I'm just saying.



Okay, apology time. I had all my quotes done and some reactions when I was afflicted by what I like to call "sudden unexpected headache, can I shoot myself now?" syndrome. Aka I got a migraine and decided a nap was a good plan, but then I didn't wake up again at five or six like I'd planned. Sorry, I know, I'm a bit rubbish at keeping track of time. I'll just submit this now and catch up again. And I'll probably have to vote in the next 45 minutes or so, or else I won't be able to at all.

x'd since the last post I quoted. Ish.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys? Was it specified that dead-but-still-talking OG is on anybody's side but his own?

I ask this for the same reason I earlier had a question about the Cobbler (but still can't remember what it was. It was a question I ran across whilst rinsing shampoo from my hair before work this morning, but was too busy to ask before it ran off...).

Something...

Cobbler can't spy on himself...
Lover dies, second Lover gets to avenge (I'm having a bad sugar crash at the moment after a really, really long day, so forgive me if I screw this up, I'm just thinking aloud).
Lovers are on their own side, right?
Is one of the Lovers a critic? No, can't be... they're singers.
Are they typical Lovers in that they want to win? That is what Lovers do, yes? I ask this because you remember that the only Lovers game I did, I was an ish-Lover with special powers and rules, so I don't remember what they *should* be.

I still can't remember what my question was.

Oh. No, now I remember...

Does the Cobbler/Spy get to find out the role of the person s/he spies on, or is that information given only to the Critics? Because if the Cobbler knows her/his marks, than there's an extra player on the side of evil who knows that who s/he may or may not be voting for is ordo. Do you follow?