Patriotism and the Lord of the Rings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Most commoners lived short, squalid lives, were dragged off to war by press gangs, and were slaughtered brutally on the battlefield without any comprehension about what they were actually fighting for. Whether they cared about which tyrant they fought for mattered little anyway.

Oh, rubbish. A 'Norman Keeps' view of history, the mud-and-dung school which sees 'oppressed masses' everywhere.

Take a look at the contemporary accounts of the common Englishmen- and not just the impoverished, but yeoman farmers- who flocked voluntarily to the banners of Edward III and Henry V. Or consider the fact that a couple centuries later plays on the subject, stuffed full of flag-waving jingoism, would be immense popular hits with the Globe's penny groundlings- scant years after the Armada's defeat to general rejoicing.

Or consider that during the Plantagenets' wars in France, the use of French was so 'unpatriotic' that it vanished from daily speech- giving rise to Middle English. (And the St George Flag as well).

Or if you want to go back a bit, read some of Pericles' speeches- to a nation of citizen-soldiers. The Athenian underclass were slaves and didn't fight.

Human beings are tribal, whether its football boosters or nations at war. We love to have an 'us,' to be contrasted with 'them.'

EDIT to keep it on topic- the Rohirrim put up with Theoden's grandfather Fengel, a long-lived and lousy king.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh, rubbish. A 'Norman Keeps' view of history, the mud-and-dung school which sees 'oppressed masses' everywhere.

Take a look at the contemporary accounts of the common Englishmen- and not just the impoverished, but yeoman farmers- who flocked voluntarily to the banners of Edward III and Henry V.

...And stayed in France as parasitic mercenaries -- like Robert Knollys, John Hawkwood and thousands of others -- who preyed on the French countryside for most of the 14th and part of the 15th century. Don't kid yourself, it wasn't patriotism, it was the lure of loot. And the grateful English kings, in lieu of payment to his troops, merely left them in France to fend for themselves. Once the French managed to produce a king that wasn't genetically imbecilic, like Charles V, the easy pickings dried up, and the war became very unpopular. Taxes increased due to resulting lack of funds being siphoned from France, and the spiralling inflation led to the Peasant Revolt under Wat Tyler and John Ball.

This was also the case in 1066, as the Norman lords (and half the murderers of Europe) followed William the Bastard across the Channel to feast on Anglo-Saxon England. A grateful William gave out huge tracts of land to his lords, the only way his 'patriotic' pals would have remained in England after stripping it bare.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Or consider the fact that a couple centuries later plays on the subject, stuffed full of flag-waving jingoism, would be immense popular hits with the Globe's penny groundlings- scant years after the Armada's defeat to general rejoicing.

But my post did not concern 16th century or later Europe; rather, it concerned earlier periods more in context with the Lord of the Rings. I was primarily referring to the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. Even a discussion of wars during the 14th century represent the germination of nationalism (particularly amongst the English and the French) that was not as discernible in earlier periods, particularly the dichotomy between Anglo-Saxon peasantry and Norman lords, which would be a very Tolkienesque analogy from a philological and historical standpoint.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Or consider that during the Plantagenets' wars in France, the use of French was so 'unpatriotic' that it vanished from daily speech- giving rise to Middle English. (And the St George Flag as well).

Well, you are being rather revisionist. The first actual Angevin 'King of England' was Henry II; prior to that, their appellation was 'King of the English' -- an important distinction, and to the point I was making earlier. But the use of French was waning as early as the death of William I. King Edward I spoke English entirely; however, the epitome of Plantagenet Kings, Edward III, spoke primarily French, and since you refer to Shakespeare, do you not find it interesting that in the play Henry V there is an entire scene where the king's dialogue is in French? To be fair to your argument, Henry V did also inaugurate the use of Chancery Standard English, and his reign was the first to have English used as the language of government documents.

But French never truly 'vanished' from daily speech, which is a preposterous exaggeration. Actually, Middle-English is a melding of French and Old English, if you follow the theory that M-E is a Creole language. Creolization is a linguistic process that reflects the maturation of an inferior language (in this case Anglo-Saxon) to reflect the sophistication and complexity of the dominant language (Norman French) over a prolonged period of time. As it is, there are countless French words still mucking up the language.

Intriguingly, and germane to Creolization, is the number of borrowed French words used to define nobility and power in English. If one is a lowly peasant farmer, one has chickens, cows, lambs, sheep and pigs (all Anglo-Saxon variants); however, once the farm animals have been slaughtered and pass to the refined lord's plate, they have become poultry, beef, veal, mutton and pork (all derivative of French). In addition, the English parliamentary and judicial systems both rely heavily on French (the words parliamentary and judicial both, of course, borrowed from France).

Now, to stay on topic after a lengthy diggression...let me see, let me see...ah yes, Rohan! Okay, I am relieved.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

The question that Abers put forth about Theoden is interesting indeed. Groin sugests that it is because monarchy is the only thing known to inhabitans of Rohan, that might be, but I am not intirely convinced by the argument. Through history there have been plenty of cases where Kings have been overthrown, not to introduce a new system, but to introduce a new king. Obvious he would need to have some sort of claim to the throne, but those could be fabricated. . .
If Rohan had been truly patriotic, then surely they would overthrow their king who was under the influence of a foregin power?

It seems that allegiance often lies with the royal families and other overlords and not so much to a country. . .at least that is the view I have.

The elves surely are not patriotic. They have fought for personal gain and against a common enemy, but I have yet to see any sign of true patriotism.

I would like to say more, but I have so many thoughts I need to process, especially about Elves and Gondor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

do you not find it interesting that in the play Henry V there is an entire scene where the king's dialogue is in French?

Actually a scene where the king, once, attempts to communicate with Katherine in astoundingly *bad* French, which is the point:

"I will tell thee in French, which I am sure will hang upon my tongue like a new-married wife about her husband's neck, hardly to be shook off. Je quand sur le possession de France, et quand vous avez le possession de moi - let me see, what then? St Denis be my speed! -done votre est France et vous etes mienne. It is as easy for me, Kate, to conquer the kingdom as to speak so much more French. I shall never move thee in French, unless it be to laugh at me."

Of course Will is taking licence: the real Henry spoke perfectly good French.

(Plantagent: yes, from Geoffrey comte d'Anjou- but it remained the English royal surname down to Bosworth Field).

Taxes increased due to resulting lack of funds being siphoned from France, and the spiralling inflation led to the Peasant Revolt under Wat Tyler and John Ball.

together with the Black Death and the resultant ill-considered Statute of Labourers....

Moving back in time, though: I doubt that even the fyrd at Hastings was devoid of patriotism, or at least a recognition that their freedom was under threat from a foreign culture and political system (as it was).

Sure, the Free Companies were hyenas- but they preyed on French (including nominal English subjects when they could get away with it). The rise of patriotism runs in parallel with the rise of nation-states of a more-or-less ethno-linguistic character. While mercenaries were employed in most wars from the medieval period right down to the modern age, the two conflicts characterized by armies composed almost entirely of mercenaries were the arenas in which national formation had been arrested: Renaissance Italy and the Thirty Years' War.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Actually a scene where the king, once, attempts to communicate with Katherine in astoundingly *bad* French, which is the point:

Of course Will is taking licence: the real Henry spoke perfectly good French..

Nevertheless, as I've noted, it wasn't until Harry's reign in the 15th century that English became the official language of England.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Moving back in time, though: I doubt that even the fyrd at Hastings was devoid of patriotism, or at least a recognition that their freedom was under threat from a foreign culture and political system (as it was).

Was it patriotism to England or loyalty to Harold? Heck, Harold's own brother, Tostig, sold out, and there was dissent in the north in favor of Harald Hardrada. It was not a unified 'England' that William the Bastard invaded.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Sure, the Free Companies were hyenas- but they preyed on French (including nominal English subjects when they could get away with it). The rise of patriotism runs in parallel with the rise of nation-states of a more-or-less ethno-linguistic character. While mercenaries were employed in most wars from the medieval period right down to the modern age, the two conflicts characterized by armies composed almost entirely of mercenaries were the arenas in which national formation had been arrested: Renaissance Italy and the Thirty Years' War.

If you look at the dynamics of France in the 14th century, it was basically a crazy-quilt of conflicting Duchies: Berry, Anjou, Burgundy, Brittany, Normandy, and even the petty kingdom of Navarre. There was very little impetus for unification because the monarchy was weak; whereas, England had a series of strong kings (or at least strong ones alternating with weak ones). It would seem that centralization played a part in patriotism in the late Middle-ages.