Galadriel's Ban

[Orald]

I understand that you are at work, and unable to find a specific quote, as long as one is found eventually.

And the point of my question was asking whether or not it is truly a ban by the Valar or more self-imposed. I seem to recall something along the lines of Galadriel not returning because she wanted to search out new lands for her own, as you said, but I don't believe making that decision would or should have any more repercussions than returning. I mean, it isn't like all of the Noldor returned at the end of the First Age, many did but many stayed. And the Noldor were a blended people by this time, many likely being descended from Sindar as well.

It would just seem prudent to me, if I were a Vala, to stop laying down Dooms after a while.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The problem is that Tolkien could never make up his mind, either about the manner of Galadriel's departure, or the nature of the Ban. So in one place he says that Galadriel "proudly refused" to return into the West, and in another he says that the Ban was not lifted for the chief actors in the Rebellion, including Galadriel (actually the only C.A. left alive).

If we want to intrude 'argument from canon', it's pretty clear from the two songs in the chapter "Farewell to Lorien" that Galadriel wanted to go back, but was prohibited from doing so.

[The Might]

Firstly, how it all started for Galadriel...

From a late, primarily philological essay according to the UT:

So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos.

Also, from a letter written in 1967:

The Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of The Lord of the Rings only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressëa, the solitary isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.

However, there seems to have been a development here as CT continues by saying:

This statement, very positive in itself, does not however demonstrate that the conception of a ban on Galadriel's return into the West was present when the chapter "Farewell to Lórien" was composed, many years before; and I am inclined to think that it was not.

In this philological essay I mentioned there does not seem to be a trace of a ban being lifted:

Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.

Furthermore from another story about Galadriel and Celeborn:

It is very notable that not only is there no mention in this text of a ban on Galadriel's return into the West, but it even seems from a pas*sage at the beginning of the account that no such idea was present; while later in the narrative Galadriel's remaining in Middle-earth after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador is ascribed to her sense that it was her duty not to depart while he was still finally unconquered. This is a chief support of the (hesitant) view expressed above (p. 240) that the story of the ban was later than the writing of The Lord of the Rings, cf. also a passage in the story of the Elessar, given on p. 261.

Finally, a quote from a partially unintelligible (sp?) note, the last thing Tolkien ever wrote on Galadriel and Celeborn and also one of the last things he wrote on M-e in general.

There they were welcomed with joy, as being of the kin of Elwë (Thingol). In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it.

So, to conclude, did Tolkien wish to include the ban in the stories?

At first apparently no, in earlier writings at least no such idea is existent. There is no ban, Galadriel simply is too proud to leave M-e, wants a realm of her own to rule and so goes east. She afterwards simply realises that M-e is no longer the palce for her and she goes back to Aman.

It is in later writings that a type of purge takes place and Galadriel feels that she is still under a ban of the Valar. She rejects the proposal to return and thus somewhat separates herself from the Valar and manages to bring herself closer to them by refusing the Ring and by aiding the free people of M-e in their fight against Sauron.


Btw, this is just a number of quotes I felt summed up the whole topic best, however for deeper knowledge I strongly recommend reading the entire "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" chapter in the Unfinished Tales. A lot more interesting information on these two and also on Amroth to be found there.

[Galin]

Yes Galadriel had been banned. The letter of 1967 (already quoted in the thread) 'goes with' the following:

'After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.'

JRRT, The Road Goes Ever On

In Unfinished Tales (in commentary following a very late sketch removing Galadriel from the Rebellion) CJRT notes that Galadriel's actions 'could still be transformed radically, since The Silmarillion had not been published.'

However The Road Goes Ever On had been published, so there were some details about Galadriel that Tolkien himself had made official for his readers.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes, Galin: and although I generally give great weight to CT's opinions in this case I disagree with him. I can't see how 'Farewell to Lorien' can be read except as implying the existence of the Ban, the text of Namarie admitting I think to little other interpretation than the one JRRT assigned to it in RGEO in 1967. (And "I sang of trees...." even more so).

[Orald]

Thank you, I appreciate the quotes. I read UT a few years back after craving more having already read the Silm and bits of HoME, but over the past few years I have forgotten much and wanted a clarification, which has now been provided thanks to the excerpts included in this thread. Recently I have started the process over again, currently bouncing back between Silm, UT and tLR, so I may stop in again for other questions now and then. Again, thank you.

[Galin]

There is the statement in The Mirror of Galadriel that seems to imply Artanis is allowed to pass Oversea: 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel' This is before her songs of course. In any case, someone was going to add it eventually I guess, despite the strong statements in RGEO.

On the Kinslaying: from her introduction (in text) to the Elder Days in the early 1950s, it seems 'the people of Finarfin had had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde' (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, written possibly between the end of 1959 and March 1960, according to Hammond and Scull in Chronology). In earlier text Angrod appears to confirm this before Thingol (War of the Jewels).

In 1968 however (Shibboleth of Feanor): 'she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin'.

Did Galadriel herself kill? Well it doesn't say that, but now she is involved at least, in some way and measure, in the Kinslaying. In the even later adumbrated tale (Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is removed from the Rebellion, and the implication is that she was in Swanhaven before Feanor, and still 'fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor' Contemporary with this late text is the letter to Lord Halsbury, where Tolkien notes that Galadriel was 'unstained' and had committed no evil deeds.

Unless I've missed something Galadriel had no part whatsoever in this event for some years (in Tolkien's mind, though hard to say more than 'as evidenced on paper at least'). And then she is given a heroic part defending the Teleri.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I can't see how 'Farewell to Lorien' can be read except as implying the existence of the Ban, the text of Namarie admitting I think to little other interpretation than the one JRRT assigned to it in RGEO in 1967. (And "I sang of trees...." even more so).

I agree that these texts seem to indicate a ban, even if Tolkien hadn't yet thought of a reason for Galadriel specifically to be banned.

Anyway, the reason I "woke up" this thread concerns a possible next stage in the imagined history. At one point Galadriel reveals: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young . . . [addition]
And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.”

Would this not suggest a "phase" (if possibly short lived, and ultimately revised of course) wherein Galadriel is not even part of the Rebellion? One person elsewhere on the world wide web has stated that Galadriel's songs could not, then, have referred to her ban -- I disagree with that so far, due to how I read the textual sequence given in The Treason of Isengard. . . and I'm wondering if you, or anyone, read the TOI description as I do. Which is (so far?):

manuscript -- no Melian statement
fair copy manuscript -- no Melian statement
typescript (not made by Tolkien) -- basically a copy of the fair copy -- no Melian info as typed

Melian added "later" on both typescript and manuscript

And Christopher Tolkien describes: "The initial workings for Galadriel's songs were nonetheless found with the earliest manuscripts of this chapter, both her song upon the swan-boat (of which there is also a finished text) and Namarie. The completed form of the first reads: . . ."

Maybe that's a bit vague, but if I read things rightly, I think it might leave room for two ideas here. If not, it seems
a bit odd that Tolkien should be thinking Galadriel has been banned within the same conception that she passed over the sea with Melian.


Of course, ultimately the Melian statement is dropped, with revision to the "mountain sentence", but I just wondered if you or anyone cared to comment further here.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, the reason I "woke up" this thread concerns a possible next stage in the imagined history. At one point Galadriel reveals: "We have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young . . . [addition]
And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.”

Huh. It's really hard to figure out what Tolkien might have been thinking here. The footnote you quote points to HoME V and the Later Annals of Valinor as the most recent (at the time) version of Melian's story; that has her leaving Aman before the Elves even awake, and apparently not returning until Thingol's death. Could Tolkien have actually considered either having Melian leave Aman after the arrival of the Noldor, or letting her travel between the two regions freely? Either seems like it would massively distort Thingol's story.

Or - is this early enough in the writing of LotR that he could just have been stealing a name, like he did with Glorfindel? If the sentence had stayed, would he have written anguished notes decades later asking whether there could possibly be two Melians?

Relatedly, there's a post-1955 note somewhere in NoME stating "Galadriel is made sister of Finrod" (emphasis in original), which in context seems to be Felagund. Given that the Finrod > Finarfin, Inglor > Finrod change only came about after the First Edition of LotR, does "is made" imply that the two statements in the Appendices that Galadriel is Felagund's sister didn't exist until the Second Edition (ie, "I am now making")? That would at least allow her to cross the Sea significantly earlier than the Rebellion, which the later youthful Galadriel would have trouble with. (Does anyone have a First Edition they can check?)

hS