Galadriel's Ban - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orald · 01-22-2009, 02:13 PM

Thank you, I appreciate the quotes. I read UT a few years back after craving more having already read the Silm and bits of HoME, but over the past few years I have forgotten much and wanted a clarification, which has now been provided thanks to the excerpts included in this thread. Recently I have started the process over again, currently bouncing back between Silm, UT and tLR, so I may stop in again for other questions now and then. Again, thank you.

Galin · 01-23-2009, 05:46 AM

There is the statement in The Mirror of Galadriel that seems to imply Artanis is allowed to pass Oversea: 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel' This is before her songs of course. In any case, someone was going to add it eventually I guess, despite the strong statements in RGEO.

On the Kinslaying: from her introduction (in text) to the Elder Days in the early 1950s, it seems 'the people of Finarfin had had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde' (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, written possibly between the end of 1959 and March 1960, according to Hammond and Scull in Chronology). In earlier text Angrod appears to confirm this before Thingol (War of the Jewels).

In 1968 however (Shibboleth of Feanor): 'she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin'.

Did Galadriel herself kill? Well it doesn't say that, but now she is involved at least, in some way and measure, in the Kinslaying. In the even later adumbrated tale (Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is removed from the Rebellion, and the implication is that she was in Swanhaven before Feanor, and still 'fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor' Contemporary with this late text is the letter to Lord Halsbury, where Tolkien notes that Galadriel was 'unstained' and had committed no evil deeds.

Unless I've missed something Galadriel had no part whatsoever in this event for some years (in Tolkien's mind, though hard to say more than 'as evidenced on paper at least'). And then she is given a heroic part defending the Teleri.

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-23-2009, 08:01 AM

Well, nobody, I think, ever suggested that Galadriel had incurrd guilt in the Kinslaying- she fell under the Ban (along with her brothers) for continuing on after the Doom of Mandos.

Pitchwife · 01-23-2009, 08:51 PM

The funny thing is (as I'm sure you all know), the character of Galadriel (including the poems attributed to her) first emerged during the writing of LotR, and she was only written into the Legends of the First Age after LotR had been completed.
Considering that, I think it highly unlikely that the Professor had any precise idea of who she was, what she had done previously and whether there was a Ban on her or not when he wrote the Lothlórien chapters. (Although, once he had invented her, his mind probably worked like mad trying to determine where she came from and trying out possible back-histories for her.)
For all we know, he wrote her songs (especially 'I sang of leaves...', which I actually prefer to 'Namarie') just because they felt right at the time and only afterwards went into constructing various and mutually contradicting historical explanations for what his Muse had dictated.

As for Galadriel's temptation scene: 'going into the West' was the common fate of all Elves in the Third Age; that was rather trivial, even Ted Sandyman knew about it (cf the conversation at the Green Dragon, The Shadow of the Past). OK, Galadriel, being enamoured of Middle Earth, tried to resist it; and surely the Ring offered her the ultimate chance of doing so, giving her the unique chance to order M-E according to her own liking. Rejecting the temptation, she simply accepted the fact that her own fate would be just like that of the rest of her people: "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel", instead of becoming a Dark Queen. None of this seems to call for a special Ban on her being lifted or not to explain her words and actions.

Elanor Gardener · 01-30-2009, 03:01 PM

I apologise for butting in, but I found this really interesting.

I have never before considered that Galadriel was banned from Valinor. I always presumed that she did not wish to return before the end of the Third Age. If she had been banned - how could she then return? Simply helping to defeat Sauron could not have been in the clause surely? As far as I know, the Valor could not (or did not) communicate with those in Middle Earth, so could not pardon her. So how, if she had been banned, could she then go back?

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-30-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

As far as I know, the Valor could not (or did not) communicate with those in Middle Earth, so could not pardon her. So how, if she had been banned, could she then go back?

Ah- Tolkien explains that in a letter, although the context is that of Arwen and Frodo. At Sauron's fall Gandalf is essentially Manwe's Ambassador Plenipotentiary, with full authority to dispense, much like Eonwe at the end of the First Age. I don't think we need boggle at the notion that Gandalf the White was in some mystical way 'in contact' with the West.

Elanor Gardener · 01-30-2009, 03:24 PM

I didn't consider that. Is that how Arwen could send Frodo in her place? (I wondered how that could be allowed too!)

Galin · 11-22-2010, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(...) As for Galadriel's temptation scene: 'going into the West' was the common fate of all Elves in the Third Age; that was rather trivial, even Ted Sandyman knew about it (cf the conversation at the Green Dragon, The Shadow of the Past). OK, Galadriel, being enamoured of Middle Earth, tried to resist it; and surely the Ring offered her the ultimate chance of doing so, giving her the unique chance to order M-E according to her own liking. Rejecting the temptation, she simply accepted the fact that her own fate would be just like that of the rest of her people: "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel", instead of becoming a Dark Queen. None of this seems to call for a special Ban on her being lifted or not to explain her words and actions.

Hmm, but isn't this at least a bit problematic within the context of RGEO?

In reconciliation I once thought (my own idea not JRRT's idea) that maybe Galadriel had somehow received a special and immediate 'inner message' from the Valar -- that is, her rejection of the One Ring ended her ban and she is 'realizing' it with these words -- but in any case the chronology is still off here, as Galadriel sings her songs after this moment, and the meaning behind the songs cannot be doubted once RGEO is considered.

If I see it as a hopeful idea within this statement, then it almost works

01-23-2009, 08:01 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Well, nobody, I think, ever suggested that Galadriel had incurrd guilt in the Kinslaying- she fell under the Ban (along with her brothers) for continuing on after the Doom of Mandos. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

01-23-2009, 08:51 PM	#4
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	The funny thing is (as I'm sure you all know), the character of Galadriel (including the poems attributed to her) first emerged during the writing of LotR, and she was only written into the Legends of the First Age after LotR had been completed. Considering that, I think it highly unlikely that the Professor had any precise idea of who she was, what she had done previously and whether there was a Ban on her or not when he wrote the Lothlórien chapters. (Although, once he had invented her, his mind probably worked like mad trying to determine where she came from and trying out possible back-histories for her.) For all we know, he wrote her songs (especially 'I sang of leaves...', which I actually prefer to 'Namarie') just because they felt right at the time and only afterwards went into constructing various and mutually contradicting historical explanations for what his Muse had dictated. As for Galadriel's temptation scene: 'going into the West' was the common fate of all Elves in the Third Age; that was rather trivial, even Ted Sandyman knew about it (cf the conversation at the Green Dragon, The Shadow of the Past). OK, Galadriel, being enamoured of Middle Earth, tried to resist it; and surely the Ring offered her the ultimate chance of doing so, giving her the unique chance to order M-E according to her own liking. Rejecting the temptation, she simply accepted the fact that her own fate would be just like that of the rest of her people: "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel", instead of becoming a Dark Queen. None of this seems to call for a special Ban on her being lifted or not to explain her words and actions. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

01-22-2009, 02:13 PM	#1
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Thank you, I appreciate the quotes. I read UT a few years back after craving more having already read the Silm and bits of HoME, but over the past few years I have forgotten much and wanted a clarification, which has now been provided thanks to the excerpts included in this thread. Recently I have started the process over again, currently bouncing back between Silm, UT and tLR, so I may stop in again for other questions now and then. Again, thank you.

01-23-2009, 05:46 AM	#2
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	There is the statement in The Mirror of Galadriel that seems to imply Artanis is allowed to pass Oversea: 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel' This is before her songs of course. In any case, someone was going to add it eventually I guess, despite the strong statements in RGEO. On the Kinslaying: from her introduction (in text) to the Elder Days in the early 1950s, it seems 'the people of Finarfin had had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualonde' (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, written possibly between the end of 1959 and March 1960, according to Hammond and Scull in Chronology). In earlier text Angrod appears to confirm this before Thingol (War of the Jewels). In 1968 however (Shibboleth of Feanor): 'she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin'. Did Galadriel herself kill? Well it doesn't say that, but now she is involved at least, in some way and measure, in the Kinslaying. In the even later adumbrated tale (Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is removed from the Rebellion, and the implication is that she was in Swanhaven before Feanor, and still 'fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor' Contemporary with this late text is the letter to Lord Halsbury, where Tolkien notes that Galadriel was 'unstained' and had committed no evil deeds. Unless I've missed something Galadriel had no part whatsoever in this event for some years (in Tolkien's mind, though hard to say more than 'as evidenced on paper at least'). And then she is given a heroic part defending the Teleri.

01-30-2009, 03:01 PM	#5
Elanor Gardener Newly Deceased Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Cumbria Posts: 6	I apologise for butting in, but I found this really interesting. I have never before considered that Galadriel was banned from Valinor. I always presumed that she did not wish to return before the end of the Third Age. If she had been banned - how could she then return? Simply helping to defeat Sauron could not have been in the clause surely? As far as I know, the Valor could not (or did not) communicate with those in Middle Earth, so could not pardon her. So how, if she had been banned, could she then go back?

01-30-2009, 03:24 PM	#7
Elanor Gardener Newly Deceased Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Cumbria Posts: 6	I didn't consider that. Is that how Arwen could send Frodo in her place? (I wondered how that could be allowed too!)