T-I-G LVI: Panic at the Prancing Pony

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, great. Lot of interesting stuff has appeared meanwhile, most interesting actually.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah but would it help us or the wolves more if we pointed out Frodo-ish behaviour in others? That's what I meant.

Both. It's a double-sided weapon. For myself, I would try to spot it, but keep it to myself. Only after a strange Night, when we suddenly have four Wraiths (I guess we'll know that... or will we? Moddess?), we may bring forth our thoughts on who has been turned.

The thing is, I'm not sure if Mr. Baggins wants to do that. If I was him I'd certainly try to get myself killed and become a wolf (but then again, I love being a wolf, whereas some people like to have different tactics. I remember my first game where Kit the Shade [kind of an assassin/seer/ranger] sided with the village against all odds [and killed me on the last night]).

Well, that's you. I thought the basic idea was that he was supposed to try to be on the side of the goodies as long as possible, but I guess the rules would have to be more clear on that.

Originally Posted by Beregond

And I'm disappointed no one suspects me yet. Am I not sinister enough? I have access to swords, even if they aren't very good...

Be disappointed, but I don't actually suspect you yet. I was thinking about giving you some advice of an experienced herring-tradesman, but later I rethought, as I thought that it actually might be good if we have somebody's new, fresh point of view unbiased by previous experiences (unless, of course, your point of view is biased by the sunlight, as I heard the Wraith's sight is. But for now I am not suspecting you, like I said).

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Socialism! *Is scared out of mind* Evil Legate, I for one will not redistribute my property amongst the great unwashed! *Closes Castle drawbridge* Ahh! Now my loot- that is to say my well earned capital will remain in competent hands.

Don't worry, Gollum. Once you are lynched or killed or whatever, I will make sure to confiscate your property for the State. Ha, confiscating swords... that sounds like another nice profession to do... I wonder if it could be passed as an order from the Party... so, if you by chance are not lynched or cannot be killed (being a Ringwraith), I will make sure it's confiscated nevertheless.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It's generally considered fair that newbies get a chance to play a bit longer than one day. It doesn't apply to everything, though - if you do something outrageously suspicious, you might get lynched very quickly.

Well, it's no real rule, but people try to be nice like that, generally

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

I agree with whoever it was that situation looks good. For the moment. What seems to be overlooked is that hanging over the Pony like the Sword of Damacles is the danger of losing an ordo and gaining another wraith. The Ringbearer will be their prime target and we cant spend valuable time chit-chatting (like me, for instance). Once a couple of Wraiths are gone then we'll be on fairly solid ground. Also I agree with the other whoever it was that Beregond and Mirandir should be given a day or two- but not necessarily the game. Remember me in Di's game, using "newbieness" as a cloak for for my evil? I hope there isn't a repetition of that here.

Okay, this post - it made me a bit suspicious of you, Gollum. All the day ranting about nothing (okay, of course I understand), but now you are doing a... hmmm... "Gollum 180°"? (Not so hard for him. He is very agile.) But, actually, not so as much when I read your post again - what I was trying to say, it could have been programmed from a Wraith to behave like this and try now to seem nice and reasonable and all, even "self-critical" and "self-confessing" (this previous game thing), however, it would have been far better if you said this in the first half of the Day and not now... hmm... okay, true, it's just me and the Europeans for whom the time ends, Americans have the day in front of themselves yet... Well, okay, so, if you wish me to formulate it sensibly: I am a bit more aware of you, but not as much yet to call you a Wolf without reservations (or Wraith, for that matter).

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Well the Ringbearer is an ordo for now, but xer death is probably only a matter of time. I think the best thing to do might be to remain quiet about who we think could be the RB and bring these points up only if the wolves get xem. Then we wouldn't help the wraiths or Billy to find xer, either.

Yes, actually, as you can see, I thought that as well originally - although I should mention one more thing, as I went through various stages of thinking, I also thought of this - there is one way of helping by revealing our thoughts on who Frodo is, and that is that we may help the Seer to See him. For old Barney Butterbur will know Frodo, and then could tell the Ranger, right? But still, it is probably safer to stay put about him for the time being.

Originally Posted by Beregond

Agreed. It's Bill Ferny we should go after, assuming xe is an asset to the wraiths. Does Ferny have any powers as an informant, or is xe only special because he can contact the wraiths, indirectly?

No, no, no. If you notice any Ferny, you should just ignore him, because his purpose is to make mess. We should go after the Wraiths, not Ferny.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

About Frodo. I think that Frodo should actually do the decent thing and reveal himself if he felt he was in danger of being killed by Night. That way we could lynch him and prevent the birth of a fourth ringwraith. When Frodo is in danger great enough to reveal should surely rest on the ringbearer him(her)self; we others should not push him but should point that out.

That's exactly what I thought. Aganzir made me only aware of that, though, it depends on the Bearer's conscience.

About Ferny. I suggest we cut off the speculation about that old scrooge for Day1. Let's not help him. The less we speculate about him, the more he has to do himself.

Eeexactly.

The same goes with Dury's ranger impersonation. Let the wolves chew it for the time being. We should bother ourselves with it only later if it looks like it.

What? I must have missed something. Or are you pulling something, Nogrod? (Or I am dumb?)

All right. Now one interesting thing. This Fëa's post:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Well, as it's the first day and I have had no dreams that I wish to lay carefully before you, and I've got no evil plans I'd like to implement, I need somebody to suspect.

Innocents on Day One atypically have anybody to gun for based on actual evidence, so I figured I should come up with some sort of guideline to slim down the pool of possible people for me to latch onto immediately. Usually on the first day I pick at total random because I have nothing better to go on yet. This time I decided that 'enthusiasm = reason for enthusiasm' seemed like a pretty fair thing to go on.

Thus my otherwise random suspicion (since I have nothing solid to go on).

Okay, I quote just a bit, but on first sight it's probably nothing in particular - but it's been the post as a whole. I have been thinking. She said twice "dream" in her post, and even otherwise, it seemed... well, weird. And this suspicion for Sally, okay, one could look at it from various angles, but then I thought of one thing...
What if she is the Informer?
The Cobbler, simply. Cobbling around. Making a mess. I would not have given any much special importance to either just by itself - saying "dream" twice like that and this suspicion can be anything - but if you think about it as a Cobbler, it kind of makes sense. So...?

The only thing is - is the Informer actually a Cobbler? Because in fact he is not so. However, by confusing people, he could help the Wolves - what else would he do, besides trying to point out the Ringbearer. And mainly, by Cobbler-ish behavior, he may try to get the Wraith's attention.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Agan does not quite sit right with me anyway. She does not suspect me (yet) and she says weird stuff. Also, she's a cruious mixture of her late noisy ordo-style and her reserved wolf-style of past. That seems a bit fishy to me. Okay, I don't want to judge this quickly, but I'm keeping an eye on xer.

I wonder why or what. Okay, she may be - as she is often - doing this "seeming innocent, but not being so". But actually this far I do not think even that, or at least nothing rings my alarms (well, which may be the problem, but whatever). I wonder however...

I quite like Fea's tactics. It makes me feel pretty good about her. But it does also look like a terribly convenient way of wolfing around.

Now this is interesting when I consider what I just thought of Fea (associating? The question is, if you - as a Wraith - would be able to discern Fea as Informer just from what she said before, mainly, since you claim you crossed with that last post of hers, which made me suspect her).

Anyway, combined with the way you post... your posting is weird. It was the first post, and this one is it again, so it was not just a random thing. If I were to try to define it, you are posting here and there "joking" bits, which can't be even serious, like this:

And what's this show of Nogrod's about making just a few posts? Nonsense, I say!

While trying to appear reasonable and post reasonable sometimes at the same time. It does not make much sense to me. It does not feel like you, basically.

EDIT: X-ed since Little Green

[Mirandir]

(Re: Fea)

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

She said twice "dream" in her post, and even otherwise, it seemed... well, weird. And this suspicion for Sally, okay, one could look at it from various angles, but then I thought of one thing...
What if she is the Informer?

However, Fea has traditionally been known to do whatever she can to throw people off track, including alluding to roles that she does not actually have. To give something away this early is more likely than not just part of her grand scheme to get us all hopelessly confused.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

(Ha! I wonder whether he'll be gutsy enough to dare give his own name to this end in Night 2. )

Great. So what shall we do with you now, Mac? Especially if the RW's get your name tonight. Which of course, the normal villagers won't know, but if the RW's see "Mac" tonight, they know who their informer is. A great way to do that. Fantastic, as the villagers won't be there to see it, thus have no evidence against you.

If I understand you correctly, then Frodo-ish behaviour is behaviour meant to get oneself killed.

This is a note on the general idea of this being true: Not necessarily. Like I said, I presumed that Frodo would try to play for the village's side and if he were to bring hints, I imagined he would do that to make the village aware that he should be protected or such (cf. the role of the Ranger and the possibility of Barney informing the Ranger of Frodo's identity if he knows!). Only twisted people like Aganzir or TP, who is not among us now here, come up with such ideas like wishing to become a Wraith...

Frodo just wants to win. If the innocent side seems stronger, he'll try to avoid being killed (like everybody), if the evil side seems stronger, he might try to set himself up. I don't think he tries to be killed from toDay on.

However, this idea sounds more sensible.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I can't see that. And that alone wouldn't help them because Ferny too should know them before they can form an alliance. I don't think we should worry about Ferny. I think you're making him a big threat which I can't see him being, and that makes me wonder. Who on earth would want to portray the situation in such grim light? Ferny herself, perhaps?

Weird again. The wolves, obviously.

All right, Lommy is not as sinister as I thought, not always at least.

I just wonder if Wolf-agan would be so silly (read: careless and likely not to succeed) to do things like that, trying to convince the village or the Ringbearer to point himself out, so that they could catch him... but perhaps, probing?

Originally Posted by Rikae

Even showing up as late as I did, I almost had the opportunity to make my point about Mr. Underhill before anyone else, but then Nog had to go and mess it up for me. Eh. Revealing may be the best thing Frodo can do for the village. If we know who he is, as soon as a kill is missed (Frodo is changed) we can lynch him.

Yes, but there's this thing that this way Frodo nobly sacrifices himself (by revealing). And, takes one chance from us lynching a Wraith, okay, he could become one himself, but then, if he is not under direct threat, we may get one Wraith AND have still innocent Frodo among us (you see what I mean?). Unless he is under direct threat, I don't think it's good for him to reveal - also simply playwise (that's what I think Kitanna had in mind when making this role). Otherwise he could reveal on Day 1 in his first post, which I find a bit silly.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

You remember how Aragorn was first pictured in Lotr?

Okay. I was confused, because it seemed to me that Nog is being serious, and I could not decipher about WHAT.

EDIT: X-ed since Mira

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

One note. Gondie sounds really, really awful. I am going to call him Gandhi.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, but there's this thing that this way Frodo nobly sacrifices himself (by revealing). And, takes one chance from us lynching a Wraith, okay, he could become one himself, but then, if he is not under direct threat, we may get one Wraith AND have still innocent Frodo among us (you see what I mean?). Unless he is under direct threat, I don't think it's good for him to reveal - also simply playwise (that's what I think Kitanna had in mind when making this role). Otherwise he could reveal on Day 1 in his first post, which I find a bit silly.

True, he might be passed over by the wraiths by night while we lynch them during the day - but, call me pessimistic, I don't think it's very likely he won't be changed. The innocent Frodo, unknown, is a threat, and otherwise no more use than any other ordo. Revealed, he no longer offers much advantage to the baddies.

I haven't played with a cursed villager before, but don't they usually not even know their own roles? A cursed who knows his role is another story altogether. We're not forced to lynch a known, wraith-ified Frodo right away, either, if we have other good prospects, so I don't know how we're forced to miss a chance.

Still, it also occurs to me that a known, but not publicly broadcast, converted Frodo could be even more help to the village in some circumstances. Well, we shall see.

[Beregond]

If it's helpful at all to point out: everyone involved in the game has now posted today.

EDIT: xed with Golly, and wondering why he's not voting for Legate? In fact, no one's stated suspicion of Legate yet, have they? I don't have any reason to either, but I still thought it odd.

[Mirandir]

Gollum, did you forget to mention Bere or am I just missing something?

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Gollum, did you forget to mention Bere or am I just missing something?

Sorry, I missed him. I'm not voting for him.

++Brinn

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rikae

True, he might be passed over by the wraiths by night while we lynch them during the day - but, call me pessimistic, I don't think it's very likely he won't be changed. The innocent Frodo, unknown, is a threat, and otherwise no more use than any other ordo. Revealed, he no longer offers much advantage to the baddies.

I haven't played with a cursed villager before, but don't they usually not even know their own roles? A cursed who knows his role is another story altogether. We're not forced to lynch a known, wraith-ified Frodo right away, either, if we have other good prospects, so I don't know how we're forced to miss a chance.

Still, it also occurs to me that a known, but not publicly broadcast, converted Frodo could be even more help to the village in some circumstances. Well, we shall see.

You are perfectly correct about it being a completely new perspective (although I am not sure if I have ever played even with a "normal" cursed villager).

Hmm. But whatever. As for Frodo revealing, just to clear it up a bit, I am thinking in various scenarios:

1.
DAY X
Frodo thinks he is going to be targeted at night. Under these circumstances, I think he should go and shout out: "I am the Ringbearer!" This way, the village will be aware, if anything happens.

2.
DAY Y, Y= something like Day 1 or so
There is no special reason why Frodo should be targeted (or so people think). Under these circumstances, I see no particular reason for him revealing.

***
However, there is also one thing to consider, and this is why I asked whether we would know when Frodo is turned (from the narration - like: "Now, you have 4 Wraiths."). Because if not, then it is actually even more dramatic and sinister if we know Frodo's identity, or if the Ranger knows - because, imagine it: Frodo reveals. Everybody knows. Ranger knows. Nazgul attack Frodo. Ranger protects Frodo. But the villagers won't know whether Frodo has been turned or not. The next day, Frodo goes all: "No, no, I am innocent, leave me alone!" But what now? The only one who knows the truth is the Ranger (and the Nazgul) - and he certainly should not reveal just because of that (on the contrary, I deem he should be careful in such situation. But not suddenly overly careful, of course. Just so that he does not get suspected by the Nazgul as being a Ranger). So what should the village do? Lynch Frodo? What if he is innocent. Then Ranger's save was in vein (okay, not really - the Nazgul lost one kill). Well... okay, maybe still this situation would be positive for the village anyway.

But all of that presumes a "good" Frodo - i.e. not one who would wish himself to be Wraithised. Hmph.

EDIT: x-ed since the Rikae I quoted

[Beregond]

I had no idea this game was so time-consuming! I'm not sure I want to live till the end, hehe. However, I remain committed to purging the land of wraiths. I have no real suspicions yet, but since I don't know anyone's style, that's no surprise.

I think it's the job of other people to give someone a nickname, so I'll let you call me whatever you like. I hope it's standardized soon, though confusion could work in my favor in later games.

Am I right that the vote must be in by midnight (or the end of the day, whatever time that may be)?.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, now that you drag it all out in the open, it could just as well be intended to confuse Billy and/or the wraiths.

Well, but thinking of it, if the Wraiths don't get Mac's name today, then they are clear he is not the Informer. Or from another point of view, if he is not, then the real informer would be silly - after what's been said now - to send Mac's name to the Wraiths. Whereas, great. He could send them his name and they'll be clear. I really don't like it, the more I think of it. What did you think when you said that, Mac? That I would like to know. What gain did you expect from that? What gain for the village?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

No, I don't think she's a wraith. She might be but I don't suspect that very much, The problem is that I don't suspect anyone else of being undead either. (Q: What is a 'downsian traitor? A: Undead. Hahahahahaha.)

Okay, now this is serious - do you think she just needs some sleep, or is she getting a bit silly?

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Wait, wait, wait. You claim that I spend the first half of the day joking around. Fine, no issue there. But then you say that I could have been programmed as a wraith to "do a 180", switch around and talk big. I was commenting on things others had spoken which had not been in the thread before. The points had not yet risen, I could not build off them.

Of course. And it's perfectly reasonable, I am aware of that. Okay, my post had a bit two edges: one was this sort of suspicion, the other was intended to be also a "push" for you for the future, eventually, if you are innocent, to post sensibly also in the beginning, not just realise that when it's already almost DL (where I realised, it's just for somebody who is going to sleep, like me). This 180 is actually the main point about the suspicion, simply the sudden change. But like I said, nothing that bad. Explanation accepted.

Originally Posted by Beregond

I had no idea this game was so time-consuming! I'm not sure I want to live till the end, hehe. However, I remain committed to purging the land of wraiths. I have no real suspicions yet, but since I don't know anyone's style, that's no surprise.

Well, you'll get used to it - it's always just times when people are around in large numbers, around deadlines and such, in contrary, sometimes it is annoyingly quiet

EDIT: x-ed just with Runne&Gollum

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Is Mac around still? I would really like to hear from him about that...

[Nogrod]

Okay there finally goes my idea of posting only once or twice on Day1...

But I really thought of trying it after the last game which wasn't the first one where I got lynched basically because I spoke a lot and tried to actually say something and suspect people openly to get conversation going, and not only tried to survive. I was actually thinking of this one as a trial of just "surviving" -game, playing like Kath or Eomer or... But one's nature seems to be stronger than one's reason.

Anyway it's bad when the game only gets interesting at the hour you need to go to sleep.


But some notes on the recent discussions.

Interesting this mass-psychology is.

After reading Mac's first post I was feeling quite uneasy but after looking at it again I kind of fell back thinking I should not bother myself with it toDay too much and should just think of a best possible quess at whom we should lynch toDay. But after seeing that some others had also noticed the post and made some suspicions along the lines that fit my own I started thinking of Mac as actually suspicious again.

The same - albeit on the contrary fashion - goes for Aganzir whom I really thought was looking suspicious in the beginning; but after she made a few points herself and after a few people made points about her I feel much more comfortable with her.

Now why?

Because that's what we humans are, prone to agree with others, prone to agree with majority - at least in situations where we're not too certain ourselves. And that's the thing that causes all those ill-adviced bandwagons as well.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I haven't played with a cursed villager before, but don't they usually not even know their own roles?

I think that is the case. But then again at least I was of the impression that Frodo knew his role so he was technically not a "cursed villager" but that was a new role - just as Ferny was a new role and not the cobbler as such.

EDIT: X'd since the end of the last page...

[Gollum the Great]

Not voting for:

Menel
Mira
Ghandi
Durudude
Nog
Legate


That leaves:

Lommy
Mac
Greenish
Rikae
Sally
Shasta
Lari
Fea
Rune
Brinn
Nerwen
Agan

I don't want to vote for Sally or Shasta, I have nothing to base it on and I don't want to give the impression of taking the jokes too seriously.

Greenie... I don't know. That shot on me seems pretty wild, but then she hasn't got evidence on anyone- that I know of.

*Draws name from hat* and it is...

Find out in Gollum the Great's next post!

[Rikae]

About Mac - my first thought was, yes, Ferny won't send Mac's name to the wraiths now, plus, whatever name the wraiths get, they won't know whether it is a suggested lynch and therefore a non-Ferny or Ferny himself, and therefore it won't be a whole lot of use to them.

Of course, if he's Ferny, it makes it easy for him to reveal himself.

I'm not saying he's innocent, but one thing I'd like to point out about Mac is that he does tend to go pretty far when speculating about what the baddies might do. I'll just say I'm not seeing that particular comment as proof of anything. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a particular plan behind it at all.

[Beregond]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Gollum, did you forget to mention Bere or am I just missing something?

I think I'm Ghandi now.

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Sorry, I missed him. I'm not voting for him.

Hmn - am I Ghandi? You have Ghandi on the list. I'm confused, and I'm him!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Beregond

I think I'm Ghandi now.
Hmn - am I Ghandi? You have Ghandi on the list. I'm confused, and I'm him!

Okay, shouldn't we just try to avoid the confusion and call him Beregond? It's not that horribly long after all.

Or Bereg. But there we go again...

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, this post - it made me a bit suspicious of you, Gollum. All the day ranting about nothing (okay, of course I understand), but now you are doing a... hmmm... "Gollum 180°"? (Not so hard for him. He is very agile.) But, actually, not so as much when I read your post again - what I was trying to say, it could have been programmed from a Wraith to behave like this and try now to seem nice and reasonable and all, even "self-critical" and "self-confessing" (this previous game thing), however, it would have been far better if you said this in the first half of the Day and not now... hmm... okay, true, it's just me and the Europeans for whom the time ends, Americans have the day in front of themselves yet... Well, okay, so, if you wish me to formulate it sensibly: I am a bit more aware of you, but not as much yet to call you a Wolf without reservations (or Wraith, for that matter.)

Wait, wait, wait. You claim that I spend the first half of the day joking around. Fine, no issue there. But then you say that I could have been programmed as a wraith to "do a 180", switch around and talk big. I was commenting on things others had spoken which had not been in the thread before. The points had not yet risen, I could not build off them.

And I'm going to leave soon, and so vote within the next 15 minutes I expect.