Fantasy

[davem]

http://www.suvudu.com/2009/02/the-re...-k-morgan.html

“I tell you, it’s no game serving down in the city”

- Gorbag - forgotten orc captain from Minas Morgul

I’m not much of a Tolkien fan - not since I was about twelve or fourteen anyway (which, it strikes me, is about the right age to read and enjoy his stuff). But it would be a foolish writer in the fantasy field who failed to acknowledge the man’s overwhelming significance in the canon. And it would be a poor and superficial reader of Tolkien who failed to acknowledge that in amongst all the overwrought prose, the nauseous paeans to class-bound rural England, and the endless bloody elven singing that infests The Lord of the Rings, you can sometimes discern the traces of a bleak underlying human landscape which is completely at odds with the epic fantasy narrative for which the book is better known.

That little twist of urban angst quoted above is one such trace. It comes at the end of The Two Towers and is part of an on-going set of dialogues between two orc captains at the tower of Cirith Ungol. And for a while - until Tolkien remembers these are Bad Guys and sends the wearyingly Good and Wholesome Sam up against them - we get a fascinating insight into life for the rank and file in Mordor. The orcs are disenchanted, poorly informed and constantly stressed by the uncertainties that lack of information brings. They suspect that the war might be going badly for their side, and that their commanders, far from being infallible, seem to be making some serious errors of judgment. They worry that if their side loses, they can expect scant mercy from their victorious enemies. They mutter their misgivings sotto voce because they know that there are informers in the ranks and a culture of enforcement through terror bearing down from above. They also seem possessed of a rough good humour and some significant loyalty to the soldiers they command. And they’re not enjoying the war any more than Frodo or Samwise; they want it to be over just as much as anybody else.

For me, this is some of the finest, most engaging work in The Lord of the Rings. It feels - perhaps a strange attribute for a fantasy novel - real. Suddenly, I'm interested in these orcs. Gorbag is transformed by that one laconic line about the city, from slavering brutish evil-doer to world-weary (almost noir-ish) hard-bitten survivor. The simplistic archetypes of Evil are stripped away and what lies beneath is - for better or brutal worse - all too human. This is the real meat of the narrative, this is the telling detail (as Bradbury's character Faber from Fahrenheit 451 would have it), no Good, no Evil, just the messy human realities of a Great War as seen from ground level. And I don't think it's a stretch to say that what you're probably looking at here are the fossil remnants of Tolkien's first-hand experiences in his own Great War, as he passed through the hellish trenches and the slaughter of the Somme in 1916.

The great shame is, of course, that Tolkien was not able (or inclined) to mine this vein of experience for what it was really worth - in fact he seemed to be in full, panic-stricken flight from it. I suppose it's partially understandable - the generation who fought in the First World War got to watch every archetypal idea they had about Good and Evil collapse in reeking bloody ruin around them. It takes a lot of strength to endure something like that and survive, and then to re-draw your understanding of things to fit the uncomfortable reality you've seen. Far easier to retreat into simplistic nostalgia for the faded or forgotten values you used to believe in. So by the time we get back to Cirith Ungol in The Return of the King, Gorbag and his comrades have been conveniently shorn of their more interesting human character attributes and we're back to the cackling slavering evil out of Mordor from a children's bedtime story. Our glimpse of something more humanly interesting is gone, replaced once more by the ponderous epic tones of Towering Archetypal Evil pitted against Irritatingly Radiant Good (oh - and guess who wins).

Now, I just know that most of the responses this will get will be attacks on the writer for attacking Tolkien, but I think, as with the last article I linked to, that he makes some valid points (the ones I've highlighted)

the traces of a bleak underlying human landscape

&

It takes a lot of strength to endure something like that and survive, and then to re-draw your understanding of things to fit the uncomfortable reality you've seen. Far easier to retreat into simplistic nostalgia for the faded or forgotten values you used to believe in

Tolkien, in Shagrat & Gorbag, shows not the banality of evil, so much as the humanity of it. S & G are the poor bloody infantry in a way that no-one on the 'good' side is. We almost glimpse the true horror of war, but never quite do. Its clear that there is this 'split' in Tolkien - the veteran who knows the horror & banality of real war is in constant conflict with the romantic dreamer who wants to escape back into an ideal past, when men fought honourably in just wars. The S & G scene is shocking in its realism - in fact, I suspect that the writer is correct - Tolkien here actually touched on the reality of war - & on realising that he ran from it like a shot.

[Pitchwife]

I know I'm not responding to davem's last post quite as seriously as it deserves (and I mean this quite seriously), but as soon as I read about Shagrat and Gorbag representing the poor bloody infantry this popped up in my mind:

Marching Song of the Mordor Orcs
(tune: The Old Barbed Wire; cf Chumbawamba, English Rebel Songs)

If you want to find the Dark Lord, I know where he is
I know where he is, I know where he is
If you want to find the Dark Lord, I know where he is
He's sitting in safety on top of his bloody tower

If you want to find the Nazgûl, I know where he is
I know where he is, I know where he is
If you want to find the Nazgûl, I know where he is
He's riding aloft on his wingéd beast

If you want to find the Uruk, I know where he is
I know where he is, I know where he is
If you want to find the Uruk, I know where he is
He's scattered in pieces all over the Pelennor

I saw him, I saw him
Scattered in pieces all over the Pelennor

(Note: Originally I meant to write this from the perspective of a Gondorian or Rohirric private, but it doesn't work for the good guys - which tells us something about good and evil, doesn't it?)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(Note: Originally I meant to write this from the perspective of a Gondorian or Rohirric private, but it doesn't work for the good guys - which tells us something about good and evil, doesn't it?)

It does - just as if we change the quote I gave earlier slightly

The Gondorians/Rohirrim are disenchanted, poorly informed and constantly stressed by the uncertainties that lack of information brings. They suspect that the war might be going badly for their side, and that their commanders, far from being infallible, seem to be making some serious errors of judgment. They worry that if their side loses, they can expect scant mercy from their victorious enemies. They mutter their misgivings sotto voce because they know that there are informers in the ranks and a culture of enforcement through terror bearing down from above.

we find ourselves in totally different territory. Yet, can we honestly imagine that none of the PBI in Gondor or Rohan felt that way? Tolkien stepped out onto dangerous ground with this scene - those Orcs suddenly become human - if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

But is he attempting to elicit sympathy for sentient beings in a hellish situation, or contempt?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

- if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

Oh, dear. "It's not the lad's fault, Milud, he had a bad childhood."

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh, dear. "It's not the lad's fault, Milud, he had a bad childhood."

Tolkien clearly struggled over the nature & motivation of Orcs, whether they were 'robots' or sentient creatures. If they were sentient one can analyse their behaviour, attitudes, whether they lived empty, hopeless lives, & if so to what extent they had any option in that.

The point of this particular discussion is why Tolkien (uniquely, I think) chose to, for a brief moment, give us a glimpse into the essential 'humanity' of Orcs. We get to see more deeply into the psyche of these two creatures than we do into most of the other characters in the whole book. In a real sense these are 'modern' people who have snuck into Tolkien's epic romance.

"Sh, Gorbag!" Shagrat's voice was lowered, so that even with his strangely sharpened hearing Sam could only just catch what was said. "They may, but they've got eyes and ears everywhere; some among my lot, as like as not. But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgul down below are, by your account; and Lugburz is too. Something nearly slipped." 'Nearly, you say!" said Gorbag. 'All right," said Shagrat, 'but we'll talk of that later. Wait till we get to the Under-way. There's a place there where we can talk a bit, while the lads go on." ........ 'No, I don't know," said Gorbag's voice. "The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling. I tell you, it's no game serving down in the city." 'You should try being up here with Shelob for company," said Shagrat. "I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier."

"It's going well, they say." "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say?--if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." 'Ah!" said Shagrat. 'Like old times." 'Yes," said Gorbag. "But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.

Those are real, true, grumbling soldiers - & they don't 'belong' in Middle-earth. They complicate things - they aren't the simplistically 'nasty' bad guys of the rest of the legendarium. For a moment they break free of their cliched existence & become three dimensional beings with hopes & fears & dreams. Again, its that "bleak underlying human landscape" which peeps through the fairy story, which for all his efforts Tolkien cannot keep out of his creation.

What's interesting, though, is that these 'glimpses' are always associated with the 'bad' side. The good side wanders in Faery, beneath the stars to the accompaniment of Elven hymns to Elbereth.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet, can we honestly imagine that none of the PBI in Gondor or Rohan felt that way?

Probably not. Generally, the commanders of the 'good side' seem to have been respected, admired, in some cases (like Beregond/Faramir) even loved by their soldiers; but we have one little scene where a soldier of Rohan expresses his doubt, or even distrust, of one of the Big Bosses (without fear of being informed on and punished!) - LotR Book III, Helm's Deep:

'What does that mean?' said one of the guard to Háma.
'That Gandalf Greyhame has need of haste,' answered Háma. 'Ever he goes and comes unlooked-for.'
'Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to explain,' said the other.
'True enough,' said Háma; 'but for myself, I will wait until I see Gandalf again.'
'Maybe you will wait long,' said the other.

We may also wonder whether anybody bothered to tell the common soldiers who took part in the last attack on the Morannon that they were merely bait in a trap, with little hope of survival - and if so, or if they guessed the truth by themselves, how did they feel about it? Unfortunately, we're not told, but it would have been interesting.

Now to the Orcs.

if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

True; and this is still the most efficient method of reducing human beings to moral Orc-level. On the other hand (to take up WCH's point), if we suppose that the Orcs were sentient beings and not robots, does that not also mean that they were in some degree morally responsible for what they made of the starting conditions they were raised in, even if these conditions were admittedly bleak? How far did their corruption by Morgoth and Sauron actually go?
The sparse glimpses of the other side's perspective Tolkien offers us (not only in the Gorbag/Shagrat scenes, but also in the dialogues of Uglúk and Grishnákh in the Uruk-hai chapter) are very interesting in this respect. Among other things, they show us that the Orcs did believe in such values as honour and solidarity, just like the 'good guys' - but they also show us their utter inability to act according to these values, even in their dealings among themselves; rather they treated each other just as badly as they were treated by their superiors.
But how did they acquire any idea of such values in the first place? And if their inability to act on them is a measure of their corruption, does that mean they're not to blame? I don't think the Professor himself ever made up his mind about that.

But is he attempting to elicit sympathy for sentient beings in a hellish situation, or contempt?

A strange mixture of disgust and pity, I'd say - disgust at the result of the corruption they had undergone, and pity (as in Gandalf's 'I pity even his slaves') for the sentient beings who were thus corrupted.