Can anything good come from Men?

[Selador]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

I think Faith is the key element. The ability of Men to walk a righteous path in Middle-earth seems to be closely related to how much they are able to put their faith in Eru's divine plan. The friends of the Elves are better able to do this, because they become enlightened by the Elves. The High Elves have had direct contact with the Valar and have been taught about the goodness of Eru. But Men may only learn of the Valar indirectly, so naturally they have a harder time accepting the ideas of Faith, Belief, Hope. Notice how the "good" men of Númenor are called "The Faithful" and the King Returned is named "Hope". These are the seminal virtues of "good" men. Despair is always associated with those who go astray. Often this despair comes from the fear of Death.

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that), but all men are faced with choices and have the freedom to choose between good or evil. Those who keep Faith in something greater than themselves, some inherent goodness in the universe, an afterlife, a merciful God - something - these people are more naturally disposed toward "good". Those who despair or turn inward, those who give up hope of any inherent "good" in the world, those who distrust the divine plan - these people are pushed towards selfishness, bitterness, evil. I'm not saying faith in the divine plan is the only path to righteousness, but it does generally help people, and people generally will end up putting their faith in something (or someone) to keep hope alive in them. As Jackson Browne sang: "Everyone I know, everywhere I go, people need some reason to believe."

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that)

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Humanity in Tolkien's world, barring instruction from the elves do seem to all fall into evil, or at least be classified as such. The Edain did move westward, not consciously seeking the elves, but trying to escape the influence of Morgoth. Unfortunately, their numbers compared to the population of humanity at large do not seem to have been very large.

In humanity's defense it must be said that they were not allowed to develop in a vacuum but had Morgoth's malign influence on them almost from the moment they awakened.

[littlemanpoet]

Selador, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. Consider the words of Aragorn in response to one of the hobbits bemoaning the passing of Gandalf in Moria - "It's hopeless now!" Aragorn says, "Then we shall have to do without hope."

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

That's what I was getting at. And I still wonder: what was different about the Edain that induced them to seek the West in the beginning, whereas the other races of Men stayed in the East and served Morgoth? They had doubtless been in communication with Silvan Elves before starting the journey, but I don't know that had much overall effect on them.

[Selador]

Gandalf's death was devastating blow, littlemanpoet, but even despite Aragorn's words, I don't think that all Hope truly died with Gandalf. Or, perhaps it can be said that Hope can always be reborn. There are many more passages which show the vital importance of Hope to the quest, but I think those are really tangential to this topic.

You are right, though, it is always dangerous to speak in generalities, and I did not mean to suggest that it was all clear cut. It is not to me, anyway. In general, however, it is apparent that Elves did have a positive effect on Men, and this seems to be attributable to indirect divine influence. Tolkien wrote in a letter to Milt Waldman (Letter #131 from Humphrey Carpenter's book):

But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and unfallen Valar and gods.

Similarly, Morgoth's and Sauron's influence did obviously have a corrupting influence on Men, in general, but I do not think this meant that all men were doomed to be evil as a result.

And when it comes to generalizations, if we generalize history, isn't it just inevitable that we view Men as evil? That is, if some men take to evil and so try to dominate other men, history will always involve conflict of man against man, even though many men are trying to be "good". And History will always be warlike, even though many men may be peace-loving and only trying to defend themselves. And isn't that in fact the very way Man's history has unwound?

Kuruharan, what do you think it is in particular that Elves are able to do to change Men's evil ways?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I think the premise of this thread is somewhat flawed.
Men were second in time but, as I understand it,
not in innate goodness or badness. Men and elves
could be viewed, if you will, as variant
"experiments" by Iluvatar. Men's rockier start seems to
be more by the way of less favorable circumstances of their
origins vis-a-vis the elves (far more influenced by Melkor
then the elves beginnings. Such an essential moral equivalency
of men/elves seems implied by Iluvatar's withholding dwarves
from life until after both elves and men.

And in Letters #180

In this mythological world the elves and men are in
their incarnate forms kindred, but in relation of their 'spirits'
to the world represent different 'experiments', each of which
has its own natural trend, and weakness...Mere change
as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the
story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God.
But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the
past...Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they
desired some 'power' over things as they are...to arrest change,
and keep things always fresh and fair.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

Well, that is one thing to consider, though it just means - I believe - simply that the Men were not utterly wicked by their dispositions. They could strive for something more out of their own, but again, cf. what I said above, the contact with the West was in some way helping and healing.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's what I was getting at. And I still wonder: what was different about the Edain that induced them to seek the West in the beginning, whereas the other races of Men stayed in the East and served Morgoth? They had doubtless been in communication with Silvan Elves before starting the journey, but I don't know that had much overall effect on them.

This is why I said it was not about Elves, but about the Light. I don't consider Silvan Elves much different from the Men who remained in the East, maybe only save for the fact that they met Oromë anyway, and, well, they were simply Elves (older race remembering the younger world, the people of the Stars, with a different fate). But in general, I don't think the Silvan Elves might have given the Men much in this sense of making them better (in this "moral sense") - they could only teach them to speak etc. (As we know they did.)

Originally Posted by Selador

You are right, though, it is always dangerous to speak in generalities, and I did not mean to suggest that it was all clear cut. It is not to me, anyway. In general, however, it is apparent that Elves did have a positive effect on Men, and this seems to be attributable to indirect divine influence. Tolkien wrote in a letter to Milt Waldman (Letter #131 from Humphrey Carpenter's book):

But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and unfallen Valar and gods.

Similarly, Morgoth's and Sauron's influence did obviously have a corrupting influence on Men, in general, but I do not think this meant that all men were doomed to be evil as a result.

However, this I agree with - that is more or less what I said earlier.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

I think the premise of this thread is somewhat flawed.
Men were second in time but, as I understand it,
not in innate goodness or badness. Men and elves
could be viewed, if you will, as variant
"experiments" by Iluvatar. Men's rockier start seems to
be more by the way of less favorable circumstances of their
origins vis-a-vis the elves (far more influenced by Melkor
then the elves beginnings. Such an essential moral equivalency
of men/elves seems implied by Iluvatar's withholding dwarves
from life until after both elves and men.

And this is also a very good point Definitely.