Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[Nerwen]

Sorry for lack of contribution– I couldn't get online before.

Thoughts–

Hansy. Rather creepy. He seems too confused about the rules of the current game to be a wolf (are we calling them wolves?), and probably too flamboyant to be the Black Queen. Might be the Black Pawn... in fact, he reminds me a lot of Lal when she was a cobbler.

Rikae: Tries to cast suspicion on yours truly, which seems awfully opportunistic after I'd just been given the first vote of the Day, and that a completely random one.

Which brings us to–

Kath. AIIIIEE!!!! Now my head may well explode. Would an innocent Kath vote like that? But then, would an evil Kath vote like that? After all, it's been established as one of the best ways of getting oneself lynched on Day One.

And then others follow suit...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. You're not all baddies... I think. But let me bet something that we have at least one baddie here already...

Here's the problem: last game, I think, all the random voters on Day One were innocent. And most were experienced enough to know better, too.

EDIT: X'd since Gwath at #123.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Here's the problem: last game, I think, all the random voters on Day One were innocent. And most were experienced enough to know better, too.

If that is how it was, that clearly is a problem. If there is a meme that says "vote random on Day1 to be on the safe side" which is spreading right now then we could just throw a lot for Day1 and skip the Day alltogether... and face the same problem on Day2, right? Inaction and uninvolvement should be the scariest ways to try and get through Day1's and not the safest... If there was a general mood that a silent-one / random-voter gets automatically killed at the end of Day1 we'd force the baddies from their safety-holes out in the open to talk - and to make mistakes so that we could catch them.

Blaah... I've said this probably a thousand times already...

But maybe this just kicked me enough to make my decision... I need to have a cigarette before it, though.

[Mnemosyne]

Looking through the last game the first three votes were all random. Two of the voters were innocent and one of them was the seer.

With that said, early, random votes do have a really good role in promoting discussion like the one that's currently going on. Nothing to make people sit up, pay attention, and actually engage in some serious talk amidst the banter than a good ole lynch vote! Voting for people just because they voted randomly is going to do nothing but give the baddies something else to hide behind.

That said, we don't have much else to go on...

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Lariren Shadow - Careful, soo careful and general that I would like to say I really suspect her. But I'm not too sure about it. She will be on my list of "to be followed" more closely. If I'd need to make a shot in a dark she'd be one of my top choices though.

I've been careful? Good to know. And is it sad that I feel honored to be on your list?

And to add here is my list:
Mira: Has only said something that made me laugh. Therefore I think she is innocent and should be kept around if just for the entertainment.

Durelin: Not sure if I have anything on her yet. Much is still to be seen.

Fea: Not sure what to make of her seer comment. It could just be her trying to play a role while being a pawn. But then I also have no idea what to make of her. She’s smart and a good player, I’ll give her that. The comment just gets to me. She could really be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.

Isabellkya: Izzy? Bella? Anyway, not much to go on here either. Just a few posts. Nothing much more.

Nerwen: Hasn't said a lot and I can see that's been because of the lack of internet.

Eomer: Has said little. Not sure what that means and I have no idea what his personality was like before his apparent new one. He has been making sense too.

the phantom: Shouldn’t die. He’s smart and really good at analyzing people. He could be a lot of help later in the game.

Brinn: I have no idea. I don't think I'm good at reading her though.

Sally: Again, not really an idea about her at all. Though other’s are suspicious of her. I’m not sure what to make of that. I can’t really get a good read on her.

Gwath: I wish I had more to say about people.

Wilwa: Really truly want something to be able to say.

Rikae: Now that I think about it, the Seer banter with Fea could possibly be two Wolves trying to communicate during the game. I don’t know what that means for us. Or it could be innocents just playing around, which is entirely possible considering.

Eonwe: Nothing.

Nog: Has posted an analysis of the posting pages. From what I understand this points to guilt because it’s easy to find fault where there is none in analysis. And this pointing to guilt is based on previous games where the guilty have done long explinations.

Syne: I like this nickname. Just saying. You can totally not like it. I consider you a newbie so that means I’m not going to vote for you for awhile. I know you’re not “new” but, well, you get a free pass. I do think that you warrent watching though.

Kath: Blah stupid Day 1.

Hansy: Newbie again. See above for reasons. And I played a Werewolf game before my first game here and got newbie status(and came in as Fea’s friend). But then again the game I played was not as active as any of the ones I’ve played here and was such a newbie I’m willing to give him the same status(I still don’t under stand the Hunter role that well).

So the people that I would possibly vote for, but am going to wait a little bit longer to vote on are:
Fea
Nog
or Rikae

The problem with this list is that these players are smart and good at pointing out baddies and are intelligent and would be good towards the end. I'm entirely not sure how I want to vote. I do know this: I think I want to stay away from the bandwagons, those mess me up.

Edit: x-posted with Mnemosyne

[Nogrod]

This is a hard one indeed.

Sally leads with two votes. I would be happy to know what she is as she always scares me but somehow I'm afraid she's the "easy lynch" this time.

Nerwen, Hansy or Gwath I would be very reluctant to aid lynching toDay either.

So maybe it's still time for a new candidate...

Kath? Fea? Dury? Isabell? Eönwë? Lari?

With any statistical probabilities there is at least one baddie in there as well as in any group six in this-sized game...

Originally Posted by Mnemo

Voting for people just because they voted randomly is going to do nothing but give the baddies something else to hide behind.

Random voting is a thing behind which you might try to hide. So is voting for those who vote randomly - and so is also voting along the lines of any stated principle (voting for the silent-ones, voting for the careful ones, voting for the controversial ones to know what they are so as they would not bother you later; not voting newbies, not voting your friends, not voting those you think could contribute a lot...). Everyone can pick the grounds for themselves - but we need to be able to see why they choose what they choose when there are no more pressing reasons to vote someone...

But there are differences. Certain options boost the game and force the baddies to act and others give them free-rides... and some are purely social and have nothing to do with the game itself.

EDIT: X'd with Lari & Isabell

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Izzy

I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm? Dwelling too much on mechanics of the game, is to a certain extent pointless. However an excellent tool if you are a baddie - since it involves distracting the village. Yet, here you are bringing up a mechanical topic in regards to Hansy. Seems to be a bit contradictory to me.

I knew I was being unclear in that post. I said I didn't think there was much use in the mechanical discussion itself. But if a veteran Downer began to actually take one of these and run with it, that would raise red flags for me, for precisely this reason.

So Hansy was being helpful in starting up a discussion there, simply because it was stirring the pot. Now we have more reactions to look at, and reactions to the reactions like that specific post that you mentioned.

That's why I mentioned that topic in that post--which I should add I was not the first to do. Noggie naturally mentioned the discussion when he was summarizing his thoughts regarding page 2, and I believe it was the mechanical discussions themselves that gave rise to the discussion of whether Hansy was milking his n00b status a little too much. That specific post was in response to Hansy's response to my questioning him from that discussion (good luck following that sentence!).

[Rikae]

Must vote

++Eönwë

Seems to be talking just to talk. Lots of responses, lots of jokes, very safe... sometimes seems to be talking from the evil perspective (first post). Insubstantial but involved. Looks creepy.

Now Rikae sleep. Too old for late DL.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

(good luck following that sentence!).

You're nearing the sentences of myself and Legate here...

And good to see you Isabell back in action with a swing! You're off my vote-list toDay, definitively. We need people able to spot things to get the discussion going!

Lari looked reasonable as well and I'd hate to lose her toDay were she an innocent. Her post gave me a welcomed perspective to what contributing means with people you have not followed too closely. There sure are ones that go under her performance toDay... quite a many to be frank.

So what should it be then? I still have Kath, Fea, Dury and Eönwë there. The three first trying to slip under the radar with nonsense and randomness and Eönwë for showing a presence with nothing to say in concrete terms (and using that terrible "semi-random" -vote). All ways of trying to sneak through Day1 suitable for baddies.

[Isabellkya]

You are worrying me a bit with your short one sentence posts, Gwath

Ah, okay. It just seemed that you had a bit more focused intent behind your posts in regards to that discussion, Mnemosyne.

Right now phantom, Nog, Rikae, Fea, and Sally stick out most in my mind, because of their typical behavior.
Sally for her typical silliness, so I can't ever really read her.
phantom, Rikae, and Fea because they always seem to be the more daring.
Nog because I can always expect to see long analyzing posts from him.

Mnemosyne, Gwath, and Hansy stick out in my mind as well.
Hansy because I've played with him elsewhere, and curious to see how he does and likes this style.
Mnemosyne and Gwath because something just doesn't seem quite right. Though I think in terms of voting right this very second, I would pick Gwath over Mnemosyne.

However, since there are about 2.5 hours left until deadline. I've time to revist the pages again.


Edit. x'd with Rikae and Nog. Also left out the word 'again'.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Mnemosyne and Gwath because something just doesn't seem quite right.

Care to be more specific?

[Brinniel]

Gah, it took me over an hour to catch up on the Day...

Some further comments about roles:

Someone mentioned (it might've been Eonwe) that it'd be best we not discuss the gifteds, particularly the White Queen. I agree. It's better if we let the baddies attempt to figure out the gifteds on their own rather than unintentionally give them clues to who the gifteds may be by discussing them.

Rikae also mentioned earlier that we should be wary if the White Queen reveals as it could be a false reveal. But I'd take that even further and say we should be wary of any reveal. With gifted wolves, it'll be even easier for them to successfully attempt a false reveal if one of them is at risk of getting lynched.

Okay, I know the discussion has moved on to talk more about the players than the roles, which is good. I'll be back later with some thoughts I have on players so far.

[Isabellkya]

In terms of Mnemosyne I get the feeling of almost trying too hard. A forcefulness. However I think it can be attributed to being new.

With you, you are not new. You've made a total of twelve posts, and the longest one is four sentences long. The majority, if not all of them are in response to what other people have said. Half of the twelve are banter.




EDit. X'd with Brin, Hansy and Fea.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Care to be more specific?

Originally Posted by Isabell

You are worrying me a bit with your short one sentence posts, Gwath

I was already thinking of voting Eönwë until I saw Rikae's vote and that changes things a bit. I had a tingling feeling that voting Eönwë is another easy option toDay (alongside Sally) but still the way he is at the top of the posting-list and has managed to say nothing definitive or particular bothered me.

But as Nerwen pointed out Rikae's actions can be interpreted as a bit opportunistic and her vote now sealed it to me. That was an easy one and alarmed myself as well to reconsider. I have no case against Rikae, but her vote clearly fits in with a clever-baddie wishing to get away with Day1 quite nicely. So I'm not too happy to vote for Eönwë anymore.

With Kath I'm afraid I'd be going on with a habit of suspecting her (following our different ideas how Day1's should be played even if I think her performance this particular time was just terrible).

With Dury there is a problem that her voting post is just so crazy (three different and almost exclusive reasons given at the same time + trying to apologise afterwards) that it might speak more of her being in a hurry and with no stakes in the game than actually being a baddie.

Fea I would love to see around as she's always fun to read and talk to but looking at her posting just "objectively" tells me she's done actually nothing but played it very safe + there was this odd addenda in her votepost that I couldn't read as anything other than as a way of trying to contact someone she thought she could gain from.

Okay there's the post by Fea explaining it - and it sounds too fanciful to be forged...

I used the capital H in purpose to refer to the joke you had made earlier about Han Solo - and saying that the Black Queen is "working" Solo felt like something fun.

Anyway, Day1's have been useful already at Day1 itself. Don't lose your patience. I've seen it a couple of times - I've also seen those where the lynching of the wolf on Day1 was not triggered by a back-stabbing wolf but was due to the capabilities of the villagers...

[Hansy]

Now I realized I should've done the analysis bit earlier; because it's almost 4am here, and my brain is certainly not functioning how it should. So, as voting is mandatory, I'll just flat out avoid having anything to do with it.

++Fea

"Revenge vote", I don't think you'll execute a veteran today anyway; here's the promise to check on Day 1 happenings tomorrow, the first thing I'll do is to re-read stuff and write my first of those oh-so-famous lists.

[the phantom]

Quick thoughts...

I like the way Hansy thinks. I realize that means nothing about guilt and innocence, but I am unlikely to cast a random Day 1 vote in the direction of a Noob that shows promise.

Fea feels fine. Rikae too.

Nog is looking as he always does. Right now I would lean innocent for him.

I wish Eomer was around more, as what he has said thus far has been to my liking.

Since I've never seen her play, it is no surprise that I don't have a feel for Mnem. She certainly hasn't done anything to make me wish her dead though. Give her at least another day.

And I would hate to lynch the usually vocal Sally just because she's having temporary difficulties.

And just generally I'd like to hear more from everyone. But that is always the case on Day 1. Things should be more comfortable tomorrow.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

Fea: Not sure what to make of her seer comment. It could just be her trying to play a role while being a pawn. But then I also have no idea what to make of her. She’s smart and a good player, I’ll give her that. The comment just gets to me. She could really be the seer, but I don't think that's her style.

*shrugs* I have yet to play a game with Fea where she doesn't claim to be the Seer at some point. Rikae's quite fond of claiming to be gifted too. With those two, it doesn't really tell you much.

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

Nog: Has posted an analysis of the posting pages. From what I understand this points to guilt because it’s easy to find fault where there is none in analysis.

So... how are we meant to catch anyone, Lari? I know we had analytical wolves the last few games– that's because they (we, actually) were trying to look typically innocent. As for Nogrod himself– well, he makes a very sneaky wolf and is always worth keeping an eye on... but so far I don't think he's done anything particularly lynch-worthy.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

An odd question– the usual cobbler role-description is "on the side of the wolf-team".

EDIT: X'd since tp at #135 (had to go and do chores).

[Isabellkya]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

An odd question– the usual cobbler role-description is "on the side of the wolf-team".

.

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.


X'd since Gwath's #160.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Why is it an odd question?
The usual Cobbler role is in a game where there is only one team of baddies. I don't know what the original or "official" role descriptions are for WereBear and Cobbler - I just know the gist of it. But, usually, in terms of the Cobbler - if dreamed of do they show up as a Cobbler, or an ordo? I can't remember from past games.

In this game at least, they're dreamed as an ordo.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Black Pawn - Cobbler. If dreamt, appears as an ordinary innocent.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Fea

But then, Nog, you were like "Say what? Fea, you're on crack." which made me then feel quite confident that I was, in fact, grasping at straws out of a rather desperate hope that Day Ones may, at some point in my life, prove useful.

Which I took to mean, Gwath, that Fea realized that her entire Seer Conspiracy Theory was complete and utter bunk and so now she was explaining the whole thing (i.e., why she made that cryptic comment to begin with).

[Isabellkya]

I don't have a mind to follow the trend and vote randomly... even though I typically do on first days. But with so many others doing it, it feels too much like bandwagoning in a sense.

There has been a lot of usual-seeming banter in the beginning of the Day, with a bit smattered here and there throughout so far. I say seeming, mostly in regards to those I haven't played with Mira, Lariren, Wilwa and Mnemosyne - so if the banter-esque things so far are typical, then okay. I've no idea.

Rikae brings up a good point/question in regards to the Cobbler. Are they on the side of general evil, or paired to a specific evil "team"?

Hansy and phantom discuss mechanics. With a little bit of rule clarifying/questioning on hansy's part.

All of this proposing on what Day Fea and Phantom should be lynched.. is banter yes, but from so many.. Why not have them pick?

#92 Mnemosyne says "Dwell too much and we either look like baddies ..... or give baddies ideas." In response to my question on what good it would be to spend a bunch of time theorizing about the White Queen.
She makes a good point that we look at both the wolves and the bear; while not at the expense of on, in favor of the other.
#116 Gwath says we ought to focus on neither/both in regards to the wolves and the bear.
- Could you elaborate on this a bit Gwath? I think I know what you are saying, but would rather see the words - than have an imaginary response in my head.

Mira and Mnemosyne wonder about Hansy's playing experience, and whether or not he may be playing up the newbie card.
Gwath comments on random voting.
#126 Mnemosyne comments and wonders about usefulness of Hansy's earlier theories and the veteran Downers contributing.

I have a question Mnemosyne. If dwelling too much on The White Queen would be baddie like behavior, or giving them ideas. Well what is bringing back up a topic from two pages ago? Wouldn't that be in the same realm? Dwelling too much on mechanics of the game, is to a certain extent pointless. However an excellent tool if you are a baddie - since it involves distracting the village. Yet, here you are bringing up a mechanical topic in regards to Hansy. Seems to be a bit contradictory to me.

On that note of Hansy. I'm not yet worried about him, and in terms of general Werewolf, the ideas are not outlandish to me. As I know what he speaks of; though they are probably "out there" in terms of this style of werewolf playing.


Edit. X'd since Nog's #130.

[the phantom]

Updated voting-

Kath ++Ner
Fea ++Hansy
Dury ++Sally
Steve ++Gwath
Eomer ++Sally (2)

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

#116 Gwath says we ought to focus on neither/both in regards to the wolves and the bear.
- Could you elaborate on this a bit Gwath? I think I know what you are saying, but would rather see the words - than have an imaginary response in my head.

Oh, sure. I meant that we should focus equally on both the werebear and the werewolves.