Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

To be honest, when I first had the idea of Andróg being the one to fulfill his curse on Mîm (re-reading the Lay), I posted it to draw you back to the project. I hoped that this idea that I found at first reducules would up set you to an extend that would make not posting right away against it unbearable.

I'm sorry that this didn't work! I actually do rather like the idea, and if this were a more 'fan-fictionalized' Silmarillion, I would be all for it's inclusion. Although I think personally I might like even better the interpretation that it was Andvír who was in Hurin's band.

But I think we agree in principle on how to treat this here - we don't add this story explicitly but we try to avoid any statement that excludes it as a possibility. This is still tricky.

The most obvious issue is Andróg's survival of the battle on Amon Rudh. Aran has argued against this:

I don't think having Andróg survive is a valid idea. Regarding the convoluted story of the "curse," Tolkien seems to have decided at the very least that Andróg was to die on Amon Rudh. I would agree with the suggestion of having Andvír be in Húrin's band.

I have disagreed with Christopher Tolkien's reading of that passage ever since I set eyes on it. He seems to think that it is impossible the line refers to Andvír, but I think he is wrong. The line is slightly ambiguous, certainly, but it makes far more sense that it refers to Andvír, and despite his opinion the construction of the line does not make that impossible.

I also do not agree with CT that the passage unambiguously refers to Andróg rather than Andvír. However, I do think that on balance it is more likely that Andróg is meant. For one thing, it would be rather strange for Andróg to have a grown son who is also a member of the outlaw band. This would make Andróg on the order of 40 years old or so, twice Turin's age, whereas I think his portrayal in the 'Narn' suggests someone much younger (and more or less of an age with Turin). Algund is said to be the oldest in the band, yet he fought at the Nirnaeth and was thus probably a young man in 473, just ten years or so earlier. Also, it seems a little strange that Andróg's (then presumably very young) son would go with him when he is chased out of Dor-lomin for the slaying of a woman. So all in all I lean toward the 'Andróg' interpretation.

But however we interpret it we can't escape the fact that the note poses some contradiction with the text of the 'Narn'. If it refers to Andróg then obviously the account of his death, and quite possibly certain details of the curse and his healing by Beleg, are contradicted. If it refers to Andvír then it contradicts the 'Narn', in which, though not explicitly stated, it is pretty clear that Andróg does not have a son who is also in the band. Also, it contradicts the account of the battle at which all but Mim, Beleg, and Turin were slain. So if we accept the statement in 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval', we must change the 'Narn' in some way.

So suppose we have Andróg survive the battle. The next question is: are we justified in moving his healing by Beleg to after the battle? I think a case could be made must do this if Andróg survives the battle. In the 'Narn' material it is suggested that when Andróg was wounded, it was only the power of Beleg's healing that averted Mim's curse. Therefore if Andróg survives the battle, one could infer that he must have been healed by Beleg then or else he would have died per Mim's curse. But it seems just about impossible that the healing would be repeated twice in the story. So we are left with the transferal of the episode to after the battle.

So I think we are actually on fairly safe ground with these two projected changes. Where things are more difficult, I think, is in Mim's death and Findegil's proposal that he is killed by Andróg with an arrow. The question here is first of all whether we should make Mim's death in our version ambiguous enough that it does not contradict this story and second, if we do, then how? We discussed the death of Mim at some length in working on the 'Ruin of Doriath'. To summarize the sources briefly, we have:

1. In TT, Hurin smites Mim for his 'evil words'.
2. In Q30, Hurin's men kill Mim 'though Hurin would have stayed them".
3. In the annalistic plot-synopsis for the 'Narn' (partially given in XI with 'Wanderings') there is a brief statement that 'Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mim'.

We decided that 3 represents a reversion to the earlier story (the rejected alternative being to assume that what is really meant is 'Hurin and his men come to Nargothrond and slay Mim') and we formed the text for this section using TT as our basis. So, in light of 3, can we really justify not having Hurin kill Mim? And, perhaps more difficult still, if we do opt for this, how do we form a text that does not identify Mim's killer?

On another topic, Aran wrote:

As an aside, if Aelfwine and all references to old England are to be removed, then the words "scop and walhstod" should be rendered in modern English: "poet and translator."

Good catch. There should be no Old English in our version!

[Aran e-Godhellim]

The only problem is that "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" most certainly precedes the text of the Narn, does it not? This would make the Narn text the final written version of Andróg's role on Amon Rudh, so should it not take precedence? As to the issue of time and age, I'll have to investigate that more deeply before commenting. Perhaps it might be best to drop the reference to Andvír altogether.

[Aiwendil]

The only problem is that "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" most certainly precedes the text of the Narn, does it not?

I had been operating under the assumption that it was the other way around, with the 'Narn' preceding 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval'. But now I realize it may not be so clear. Christopher surmises that 'this story [i.e. the part of the Narn with Androg in it] was fully in being (so far as it ever went) when A [i.e. the first version of 'Aelfwine and Dirhavel'] was written - indeed it seems likely enough that A belongs to the time when my father was working on it.'

If, then, we agree with CT's assessment, 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval' is contemporary with or very slightly later than the middle portions of the 'Narn'. But I can't find anything that offers a clue as to whether it preceded or followed the plot-outline that tells of Androg's death at Amon Rudh.

So we clearly have one story being replaced with another, but it is no longer clear to me which was replaced by which.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Ah, yes. I remember that now! That adds another wrinkle. I would still suggest keeping Andróg's death in the story, though, as removing it requires much more revision of (and addition to) Tolkien's original work. Still, the added doubt is annoying. Oh, how I wish I had the original copies to look at!

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

Aiwendil could you point me to were I would find the essay of Wynne and Hofstetter? I would like to read what they have to say before discussing that farther.

Unfortunately, I can't find it anywhere on the web. I have it in the book Tolkien's Legendarium, a collection of essays edited by Hostetter and Verlyn Flieger.

[Findegil]

The simple matter first:
Posted by Aran:

As an aside, if Aelfwine and all references to old England are to be removed, then the words "scop and walhstod" should be rendered in modern English: "poet and translator."

Since we used Text A neither of the words are included.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Unfortunately, I can't find it anywhere on the web. I have it in the book Tolkien's Legendarium, a collection of essays edited by Hostetter and Verlyn Flieger.

Okay, I don't have thta book, but properbly I should add it to the wish list.
Anyway by longer thought I got the feeling that we should keep save in this matter. What ever we do, we forth a decision on our reader in a matter were it is not necessary. I think we should skip the sentence.

Now to Andróg, Andvír and all that matter: Dírhaval composed his Lay in the Haevens after he spoke to Mablung. Thus not before 507 FA. He perished in the attack of the Feanorians up on the Haevens in 538 FA. The battle on the sumit of Amon Rudh took place in the year 489 FA. Now Andvír is described as very old in text A. I would think that means about 70 years. Even if he was found late by Dírhaval, let's say in 535 FA he would have been born around 465 FA and would have been around 24 years at the battle of Amon Rudh. Even assuming that Andvir was only 65 at that late date would make him 19 at the battle. Thus Andróg must have been older than what we expected. At the very least about 40 years.
It seems I have down argued my own nice idea: Thinks would be much simpler if Andvír is the sole surviver of the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. As Aiwendil and Aran, I also can not see that the sentence in Dírhaval Text A can only mean that it was Andróg who survived.
Let's assume it was Andvír who survived: I would even go sofare not to include him at all in the actual description of the battle, he is mentioned at the start of the Tale and that's all. Androg would be wounded once and healed by Beleg. Mîm could utter his 'it will bite again' and Andróg would bekilled by an arrow but only dying after he realeased Beleg.
Andvír then is in Húrin's Band, but again we need not name him, since all a reader needs is put one and two togther from the opening of the Narn to the Húrins encounter with Mîm.
Now there remain a view questions to be cleared:
a) When did Andróg got his wound healed by Beleg?
Christopher Tolkien did place it in CoH not at the raid in the winter, which brought Beleg upon the track of the outlaws but in the spring of that year. Christopher Tolkien did not use that winter raid at all. Do we us it? And if so, is this the oportunity for Andróg to get his wound?
b) Which curse does Andróg utter against Mîm?
Christopher Tolkien used in CoH the one with the arrow in the throat. And reading the Narn he gives that version some more wieght their as well.
c) How does Mîm die in the end?
My image from the text of TT was a blow with Húrins fist that felt the old Dwarf. At least it was not with bow and arrow since it was said Húrin 'smite' him. But then we have the Q30 text and last but not least the note in the plot synopsis given in WH, which do not at all mention how Mîm dies.

About c) that is my first idea: We try to get Húrin aktily smite him so Mîm does not die at once. When he utters his curse above the Huirn's men carrying the dragon hoard of, one unnamed kills him with an arrow as ban was done with in the Lay:

§275 (§4a) Sil77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.><TT O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> RD-EX-11.51b<editorial bridge And it is sung that
><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by an {orc-}arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], ...

Respectfully
Findegil