Inevitability of death (revisited)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Tolkien did also make it clear that Valinor itself was not really deathless, but that the presence of the immortal Powers gave the place its apparent lack of death and decay. The very power that makes Aman seem immortal and unchanging would present a danger to mortals (as the flame that attracts moths also kills them, as I believe was noted in the Akallabeth).

This could also relate to Luthien's speeded up
life caused by wearing a silmaril.

And did Valinor have seasons? Without them I'd think it would
be relatively uninteresting, like living (long-term) in a boring
climate like Hawaii. I'd much prefer somewhere like Minnesota
or Argentina to Hawaii climate wise, especially if you're there
elfwise for milennia.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And did Valinor have seasons? Without them I'd think it would
be relatively uninteresting, like living (long-term) in a boring
climate like Hawaii. I'd much prefer somewhere like Minnesota
or Argentina to Hawaii climate wise, especially if you're there
elfwise for milennia.

As for this (and I will use it to illustrate what I think about the whole matter concerning changes in Arda), I think that there won't be much of a change like this. Or, all right, it might (perhaps somebody might serve with a quote mentioning something like how beautiful were Yavanna's garths in spring, and they turned gold in the autumn or things like that? At least Lórien in M-E had its own beauty in various seasons, and we know it was already half-way through to the realms beyond the Sea), but I find it likely that there will be places like Ever-Snowy, Ever-Spring, Ever-Summer etc., which will be just the same whenever you'd return to them. Just think of it: no real change, that's why Valinor is perfect, and now let's forget the idea "always the same, how dull" and just remember some place which you liked to go to when you were small and you'd wish that it remained the same until now. ("Oh, they built these new houses down the street, they do not fit the place at all." or "They cut down these trees that were there, I remember we were climbing one particular oak as kids, and it's no longer there.") I believe this was the ultimate thought of Tolkien's behind this, also when you compare it to all he says about the changes in the countryside (like in the foreword to LotR).

Also, there is no doubt the platonism-affected branch of Christian philosophy involved (still quite strong in the Catholic church of his era). The ideal of the Ultimate Unchangeable beyond the changing phaenomena of this world is clearly sticking out of Valinor and the way the whole world works. In relation to the above, it actually seems to me that it is needed that there is a Forest of Ever-Spring as well as Forest of Ever-Autumn somewhere in Aman, to serve as an image, or as the basic "archetype" or even "blueprint" of all the forests in M-E at the various times, when they look different in every season.

However, there is one thing I find even more likely. I think it is not inevitable that there will be really no change at all even in the "ideal place" as Valinor is. Not even unthinkable that there will be spring, summer, autumn, and winter in the forests of Valinor, for example. I actually think that it is far more logical that there was spring, summer... etc in Valinor (at least in some places; surely there were at least several places of Ever-Summer around there). However, these would be most likely cyclical and always returning, every year at their proper times, switching all possible kinds of weather, but obediently returning according to the pre-defined pattern to the state of the beginning once again. This is also a thing common to the cosmologies of many especially early and ancient cultures (and it's preserved in some religions, in the current European-cultural context it doesn't work as well anymore with the "linear" religions like Judaism and following Christianity, which brought the image of the history as linear), which take the time as "cyclic" and you have the year as, in fact, a repetitive pattern which is always the same and unchangeable (and that's why such emphasis is put on things like equinoxes or solstices, especially things like winter solstice marking the destruction of the old and the beginning of the new year, completely fresh. That's why any changes of the pattern would be deadly - even such a thing as eclipse is something pretty unnatural and means that some evil force probably tried to eat the Sun).

Otherwise. I find alatar's note of thinking beyond the matter to be very interesting. I have been thinking about something similar, but rather of the sort: how do we know that bacteria etc. existed in M-E? I find it even inappropriate to think of that; just when reading the books, one gets the feeling (or at least I get the feeling, but I believe others do as well, as it seems really obvious to me) that the matter is really the way it looks, no complicated thinking of cells or about the fact that when you eat bread, it's made of some miniature organisms that also died. Horse is a horse, lion is a lion, just the way they look they also are - they are nothing more, but also nothing less - but quoting the popular verse from Isaiah, no problem to imagine that in the optimal state, they are all going to eat straw.

The really interesting thing is - as Pitchwife put it very well so that it actually hit me when I read it - that the only thing that is supposed to die in Arda are Men. But it's not really the death as we imagine it when we hear this word: and in this, I think Tolkien is actually very, very, very good and surpasses the conservative pattern of maintaining his world unspoiled and unchangeable. Because, along with this, we realise that it is not the world of Arda which is the center of it all. Men are only guests in that world, so the death is really nothing unusual for them. It is only moving to somewhere else (and only Ilúvatar knows, it may be that this step of being in Arda did not really mean that much after all!). The way Tolkien puts it, I would almost dare to say: and now, after you have read the stories of Túrin and cried for poor his family, and read the story of Aragorn and his achievements, you can forget it all, because it's not the world of Men after all, and they are all going to go beyond the Circles of the World. And it matters only for the Elves, who are bound to Arda, and for the Powers, who are even more tied to the world than simple mortal Men.

EDIT: Ha, crossed with skip. True what you say.

[Galin]

In the essay Aman (Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring) it is said there were:

'... a great multitude of creatures, without fear, of many kinds: animals or moving creatures, and plants that are steadfast. There, it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been on Earth, and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth.'

'... all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purposes of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.'

In this text 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years. I take this to mean that one year of growth for a newborn puppy, for example, will take 144 years in Aman (thus a Man would live out his whole life in less time). And that if a dog usually lives 15 years in Middle-earth, it will live 15 Valian Years in Aman. It could not get sick, for it was also said: 'For in Aman no creature suffered any sickness or disorder of their natures; nor was there any decay or ageing more swift than the slow ageing of Arda itself.'

It's noted that the Valian Year was assigned by the Valar for their own purposes, and was '... related to that process which may be called the 'Ageing of Arda'. For Aman was within Arda and therefore within the time of Arda (which is not eternal, whether Unmarred of Marred). Therefore Arda and all things in it must age, however slowly, as it proceeds from beginning to end. This ageing could be perceived by the Valar in about the length of time (proportionate to the whole of Arda's appointed span) which they called a year; but not in a less period.' After the section above concerning the speed of growth of the creatures of Aman, it was said...

'For the Eldar this was a source of joy, for in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality. On Earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in loar upon loar under the wheeling Sun.'

I might be wrong, but I interpret this to mean that there was death in Aman, but it did not 'so soon' cheat love and etc, as the rate of growth and change was in better accord with the Elves. Full context of the essay is best in any case. As Legolas noted after leaving Lorien, time was constant, but growth and change is not the same in all places (or something like that, referring to his words as the Company spoke about Lorien due to Sam's confusion).

[Pitchwife]

Thanks to everybody for some interesting and inspiring posts up to now, and special thanks to Galin for clarifying quotations!

As for seasons, I'd think there can't have been any in Aman during the age of the Trees - at least if we stick to the old, 'classic' Silmarillion cosmology and assume that the Sun didn't exist before the death of the Trees (strangely, this would mean there can have been no seasons in Middle-Earth, either, at that time!). The blossoming and fading periods of the Trees seem to have been pretty regular, at least Tolkien doesn't tell us anything about seasonal variations as far as I've been able to discover (having consulted HoME X in the meantime). After the death of the Trees and the making of Sun and Moon it seems probable that Aman would have been subject to seasonal change like the rest of the world, and being caused by the same Sun, their seasons would be of the same length as ours.

There remains, however, the question of death in Arda Unmarred. As Ibrin has pointed out,

Melkor marred the Music even before Ea was created. If Ea, and Arda, are indeed the Music made manifest, precisely as it was sung, then it never was "perfect."

But was death part of Eru's original design, the theme of the Music, before Melkor added his dissonances? There's a tiny bit of dialogue in the Athrabeth:

[Andreth:]'Many of the Wise hold that in their true nature no living things would die.'
'In that the Eldar would say that they err,' said Finrod,

but he gives no reason why. However, it just occurred to me that, if Eru had planned from the beginning that Men would finally inherit Arda from the fading Elves, he may have planned for all living things to age and die in a time span that would be in accord with the lifetime and temporal perception given to Men, as it was for the Elves in Aman.
(Obviously, this idea runs counter to Legate's point that Men are only guests in that world and probably not meant to feel at home there. Hmmm... I need some more time for reading and thinking. Enough for today.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for seasons, I'd think there can't have been any in Aman during the age of the Trees - at least if we stick to the old, 'classic' Silmarillion cosmology and assume that the Sun didn't exist before the death of the Trees (strangely, this would mean there can have been no seasons in Middle-Earth, either, at that time!). The blossoming and fading periods of the Trees seem to have been pretty regular, at least Tolkien doesn't tell us anything about seasonal variations as far as I've been able to discover (having consulted HoME X in the meantime). After the death of the Trees and the making of Sun and Moon it seems probable that Aman would have been subject to seasonal change like the rest of the world, and being caused by the same Sun, their seasons would be of the same length as ours.

Well, that's an interesting question - whether seasons did exist or not before the Sun and Moon. Remember, plants and trees did grow even in M-E earlier than Sun and Moon have been made, Yavanna had put down the seeds and they started to grow. One has to remember that it was not the light that helped the plants to grow, obviously we have to forget the photosynthesis and all the things which we are accustomed to.
So, what was happening to the trees in M-E without light? They just grew, kept growing, and eventually, when they were old enough, they died. All right, one can imagine that. But what then? Did they happen to grow any fruit, seeds, whatever, without light? Now that is one question. I would think it possible. But the images of blossoming trees in the darkness are really weird, are they - well, but on the other hand, it seems very Elvish, doesn't it?

But if so, were also the trees dropping their leaves in autumn? And anyway, if we accept the premise, then you see, you had to have seasons, even without the Sun and Moon. No contradiction in the Star Ages of M-E.

And even beside the trees, what about short-living plants? Those which last only one year, for example? Were they just there forever, and only with the coming of the Sun and the Moon they changed into one-year plants? Isn't it also possible that they grew, for example for one year, and then withered, because of let's say some of their "inner timing", not dependant upon Sun or such things?

Because, you see what happens if you say that they did not: you make the Sun and Moon the things that caused the plants to wither fast and grow fast. Not sure if that's the right thing to claim.

Also, how comes the plants, in this state, would be immortal, whereas the animals would probably age normally?

It would be the best if anybody could provide any quotes concerning this topic - but at least for myself, I can't think of anything.

[Lalwendë]

An interesting thing I read about recently was the discovery of an ancient temple complex in Eastern Turkey. This was far, far older than anything previously discovered. Stonehenge was built around 2,000BC, around the same time the Egyptians were building. This discovery has been dated at 10,000BC, when mankind was still a hunter-gatherer culture. That they were building a huge temple must mean they were also reliant upon agriculture.

Archaeologists link this to the origins of the Biblical story of Eden and the Fall. Before agriculture, this part of the world was lush, green and plentiful, but after, it became dry and infertile. Humans in the area suddenly had a hard life, tilling the soil to get a crust to eat. Just as in Genesis it says Man must live from the soil after the Fall.

Anyway, you can Google it to find out more - it's fascinating. Eden existed, it was the world of the hunter-gatherer, and agriculture was 'the fall' which resulted in endless toil.

This idea of 'Eden' is a strong draw for us if we think about Valinor, a place of plenty, of little or no toil, of wandering happily in the woodlands. But is that idea also one we can reconcile with hunting, killing animals and skinning them for food and clothing? Can we imagine the Elves doing this? Hunting is a very visceral thing. If we imagine the alternative, that Elves were veggies or vegans, it would also mean they would have to toil - apparently you can just about grow enough wheat on an allotment to grow half a dozen loaves of bread, so a huge population of veggie Elves would mean a lot of trees cut down.

Or did they just not eat? Even given that they are fantasy creations, it requires a huge suspension of the sense to think they would not eat enough to require significant farming or hunting.

Or did they not breed? They must have done. Tolkien states that Elves love to have children and that they only do not when they live in warlike, difficult conditions, which we are led to believe simply do not exist in Valinor.

Or is Valinor a kind of limitless, shifting place, expanding to provide ever more 'Lebensraum' for ever more Elves? Is that possible? If not, then whichever way I look at it logically, there's a distinct whiff of something dystopian about the place.

[Pitchwife]

This is getting rather complex, so, one thing after the other:

1. Seasons
If I remember my astronomy correctly, seasons are caused by the tilt of the Earth's axis, which makes the two hemispheres receive more or less sunlight in longer or shorter periods at different points of our orbit around the Sun. I guess you can explain seasons in a geocentric Flat World model by having the Sun move around the Earth at varying distances - but no Sun, no seasons.
How did plants in Middle-Earth grow without sunlight? Intriguing question... To be sure, Nogrod did well to remind me early in this thread that Tolkien was creating a mythology (not writing science fiction), and any attempt to make it agree with modern science is bound to run into problems sooner or later (as the Professor found out himself). Hence, Legate, your idea of things being 'just the way they look' (no cells, no microbes, no photosynthesis) does have a certain charm. On the other hand, Arda is supposed to be our world, and I can't help thinking that the plants and animals must have been more or less of the same kind as ours.
Anyway:

you make the Sun and Moon the things that caused the plants to wither fast and grow fast. Not sure if that's the right thing to claim.

I don't see why not. Leave alone the Moon, but I seem to remember several statements by Tolkien (not that I can find a quote right now) saying that all things in Middle-Earth changed swifter in the Age of the Sun. Remember Letter no.131 to Milton Waldman:

A marked difference here between these legends and most others is that the Sun is not a divine symbol, but a second-best thing, and the 'light of the Sun' (the world under the sun) become terms for a fallen world, and a dislocated imperfect vision.

2. Hunting, Gathering and Agriculture
We know that the Elves practised agriculture. The Silmarillion mentions the fields of Valinor, gold beneath the tall wheat of the Gods, and the feast during which Melkor and Ungolianth killed the Trees was a harvest festival.
We also know that they hunted. Celegorm, for example, was a great hunter who often followed Orome's horn in Valinor - not just for a pleasant ride, I suppose (remember Huan!). In Middle-Earth, Thranduil's folk in Mirkwood hunted as well, see The Hobbit.
And we certainly know they did breed in Valinor! Finwe's children were born there, and their children too. Laws and Customs among the Eldar tells us, however, that the Elves had few children, and those mostly early in their married lives, so I don't think they had an over-population problem.

3. Death and Arda Unmarred
This is still the question that puzzles me most and made me start/revive this thread in the first place. I think I've finally found a quotation myself that demolishes my initial misconception (from the Athrabeth, Finrod speaking):

'For you speak of death and [Melkor's] shadow as if they were one and the same; and as if to escape from the Shadow was to escape also from Death.
But these two are not the same, Andreth. So I deem, or death would not be found at all in this world which he did not design but Another. Nay, death is but the name we give to something that the has tainted, and it sounds therefore evil; but untainted its name would be good.'

So it seems that death (or something like it) was part of Eru's original design after all - and we're all free to try to imagine what death untainted would have been like. Anyway, I take it Finrod is talking about death in general, not just the death of Men, but that may be just me - sorry, Legate, I find the idea of a world where nothing dies but Men rather chilling. Wouldn't it be even harder to accept and come to terms with death in such a world than it is in ours? To quote two lines from our German poet Günter Eich (my translation):
Who would want to live without the comfort of trees?
How good to know they, too, partake of dying!