Dwarves are not heroes?

[Groin Redbeard]

First off, I would like to thank Kent2010 for coming up with such an original topic. I hope that this thread won't die anytime soon!

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The fact that "few fought upon either side" is significant in itself. Dwarves (mostly) just don't do causes.

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival. A good king must look after his subjects first and foremost, otherwise he loses respect and is no longer considered a good king. When Aule made the Dwarves it is stated that he made them hardier than any other race; this does not just pertain to their physical aspects but also their attitudes: they are wary of strangers and this means potential threats.

Dwarves are quick to anger and to friendship. A very hasty folk, treat them with kindness and they will be your friends, treat them with harshness and they will not forget it. We see this example with Mim when Turin and company force him to keep them in his home at Amon Rudh. Mîm tolerates the outlaws, and although he never loves Túrin, the dwarf at least comes to respect him, though not his companions. I'm sure I don't need to remind y'all how Mim had his revenge on Turin and his friends.

Dwarves may be invested in their own self interest, but this doesn't mean that they won't fight for a cause. WCH points out well that some Dwarves fought against Sauron in the Last Alliance (it is interesting to know, however, that when Sauron first emerged from Mordor the Dwarves simply locked themselves up in their impenetrable underground halls)as well as against Morgoth at The Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

When Tolkien talks about Dwarves not being heroes, my interpretation is that they will not do anything hasty for others. It wouldn't be in their best interest to put themselves out on a limb for Bilbo in the dragon's lair without good reason. After all what good will it do? Not to say that they won't put themselves out on a limb for someone at all, the War of Dwarves and Orcs is an example of that; even if it was to avenge one of their own.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There is also a practical reason for dwarves reluctance
to become involved in others affairs, the combination of
their "hastiness" when provoked and slow birth rate.
Even more then elves, they can't afford the sort of losses
men or orcs can in protracted wars. (In a way reminiscent
of Germany's problem as World War II dragged on, vis-a-vis
the U.S.S.R. and U.S.A.).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

There is also a practical reason for dwarves reluctance
to become involved in others affairs, the combination of
their "hastiness" when provoked and slow birth rate.
Even more then elves, they can't afford the sort of losses
men or orcs can in protracted wars. .

True, a good point. Still, dwarves often fought in the early stages of First Age with the orcs against the elves. I read something about that in the first volume of HoME. Something about Tu, a wizard, and him being almost a shepherd to the early elves and men, but his kingdom was broken up by an army of Easterlings and Dwarves. I'll look that up and see if it is of any consequence to the discussion here.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting thread on that Hobbit comment, a couple of points to throw into the mix;

In the translator conceit The Hobbit was written by Bilbo so perhaps reflects more of his personal stereotypes than otherwise. Saying that, Thorin of couse did prove to be a hero in the end.

Also Thorin's gang were a party of exiles, perhaps too used to living on their wits (and occasional coal-mining) to throw themselves too wholeheartedly into danger. Notably Gimli is the classic heroic Dwarven exception. One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.

I guess the contrast might be between, on the one hand, if you like, a 'hasty' hero such as Eomer, who is suspicious of Aragorn at first but is soon convinced and, you get the impression, would go into battle at the drop of a hat (OK I'm thinking slightly of Cohen the Barbarian and d'Artagnan too here). On the other hand we have the Dwarves, who are capable of heroic deeds but it seems only when they have chosen to do such things.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

interesting thread on that Hobbit comment, a couple of points to throw into the mix;

In the translator conceit The Hobbit was written by Bilbo so perhaps reflects more of his personal stereotypes than otherwise. Saying that, Thorin of couse did prove to be a hero in the end.

Also Thorin's gang were a party of exiles, perhaps too used to living on their wits (and occasional coal-mining) to throw themselves too wholeheartedly into danger. Notably Gimli is the classic heroic Dwarven exception. One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.

I guess the contrast might be between, on the one hand, if you like, a 'hasty' hero such as Eomer, who is suspicious of Aragorn at first but is soon convinced and, you get the impression, would go into battle at the drop of a hat (OK I'm thinking slightly of Cohen the Barbarian and d'Artagnan too here). On the other hand we have the Dwarves, who are capable of heroic deeds but it seems only when they have chosen to do such things.

Do you possibly mean Conan the Barbarian? Terry Prachett's Cohen always seemed to be to be a very cautious prudent Barbarian when it came to battling, that's pretty much how he became the 87 year old Barbarian he is <g>

[Pitchwife]

[QUOTE=Rumil;591845]One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.
QUOTE]

If I remember correctly, Thorin was Durin's Heir, i.e. if not for Smaug, he would have been King under the Mountain (and if not for Durin's Bane, King of Khazad-dûm). As far as Dwarves are concerned, is doesn't get any nobler than that.
Gimli was descended from a junior branch of the same family, and he and Glóin his father lived with Thorin's lot before Erebor was resettled.
Thorin certainly put expectations of heroicism upon himself. The Quest of Erebor (UT) tells us that when he and Gandalf talked about dealing with Smaug, Thorin was all for war & battle, and Gandalf had a hard job convincing him of the burglary approach.

[Rumil]

Evenin' All,

indeed Pitchwife, agree that Thorin ranked as high as any Dwarf, and considerably outranked Gimli, who ranked pretty high himself.

I'm not sure I'm convincing myself of this point, but I think there may be a difference between a hero from a settled culture, who is in charge of, say, a unit of soldiers, like Eomer or Faramir, and Thorin's situation, sure he was a Noble, but a noble in exile, living on his wits and without any large force to command. In the first situation, the expectation put upon the leader is one of heroicness, in the second, the leader is only head of a small group of companions, and I think that may be rather different.

I agree that its difficult to square Thorin's orginal gung-ho attitude with the Dwarves' general hanging-back, standing on one leg and looking uncomfortable when Bilbo was about to explore the secret passage. This is however Bilbo's point of view, perhaps the Dwarves thought that Bilbo thought that they would cut him out of the treasure if he did not burgle it personally? They were sticklers for contracts after all. Or more sensibly, that they would likely make more noise than a Hobbit and bring disaster on the whole enterprise. Perhaps some noxious emanation of Smaug was making everyone extra-fractious and selfish at this stage?

Alfirin I'm almost sure I did mean Conan, typo or Freudian slip? nicely spotted!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I think there may be a difference between a hero from a settled culture, who is in charge of, say, a unit of soldiers, like Eomer or Faramir, and Thorin's situation

True; I overlooked/neglected this part of your argument.

As for Bilbo being sent to explore on his own, I think his ability to move noiselessly was one of the reasons, the other being the fact that Smaug, who had never met a hobbit, wouldn't be able to identify his smell - these were the reasons why the Dwarves had agreed to hire him in the first place. (The magic ring proved rather handy, too, but I can't remember whether the Dwarves knew about it and its properties when they arrived at the Mountain.)

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival.

I also think it's reasonable to ask do the other races really take up others causes? You do have the 'Last Alliance,' but speaking strictly about the Lord of the Rings, can't you call all races rather selfish?

Celeborn tells the Fellowship that Lorien's communication has just been with Rivendell during these 'dark years.' And of course you see the tensions between him and Gimli. Before recognizing Gimli wasn't all that bad would Celeborn have sent his army to help the dwarves and men of Dale? Doubt it.

I think Gildor has a haughty and pretty self-indulgent opinion of Elves that showed in his meeting with the hobbits.

Gondor and Rohan show a clear distrust and avoidance towards Lorien. And even though Denethor sends Boromir to Rivendell I'm not convinced Gondor would stick its neck out for Rivendell or vice versa.

Elrond and Galadriel play an important role in the quest, helping Aragorn, and in many ways breaking that barrier of distrust between the races, but what other Elves can we say feel the same? Legolas and E&E to a lesser extent?

The only strong bonds seem to remain primarily between the same races. Rohan and Gondor, Rivendell and Lorien (maybe Mirkwood?) and I've read that in times of trouble the Dwarves could set aside their own conflicts and ban together.

By the the Lord of the Rings at least, if someone can call the dwarves selfish, can't you say the same about other races? There are the Elronds and Aragorns who do think of the whole and show a care for all races. But there are also many Denethors who look primarily at their peoples' self-interests.