The proto-geography of the Third Age

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't remember the 'later note' you mentioned in which Nogrod is identified with Moria and placed in the Misty Mountains (it's been too long since I've read HoMe VI-IX). Where exactly is it found?

War of the Jewels, p. 201. Pencilled emendations to the old QS manuscript, so that above "Nogrod, the Dwarfmine" is written "Dwarrowdelf;" and then in the margin

Dwarrowdelf Nogrod was afar off in the East in the Mountains of Mist; and Belegost was in Eredlindon south of Beleriand.

And, marked for insertion after "Belegost, the Great Fortress,"

Greatest of these was Khazaddum that was after called in the days of its darkness Moria, and it was far off in the east in the Mountains of Mist; but Gabilgathol was on [the] east side of Eredlindon and within reach of the Elves.

(Khazaddum was already the Dwarvish name of Nogrod in QS as written).

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However, my second suggestion is still intact - that the two mountain ranges were already distinct by the beginning of LotR and that he decided in the 'third phase' to place Nogrod in the Misty Mountains rather than the Blue.

Well, the notion I suppose arises in part from the fact that, when the name first arises in the LR papers, Moria is not envisioned as the route through the mountains; rather, the Co. crosses the mountains by a pass, travels south, and then encounters Moria.

This is perhaps ameliorated by the fact that in the same note the adventures are sequenced Red Pass-Fangorn Forest*-Moria; and it's entirely possible that Tolkien saw Moria as being in the Black > White Mountains, perhaps a distant precusor of the Paths of the Dead.

But if so then why give Moria the established name of Nogrod (Khazad-dum, translated Dwarfmine and Dwarrowdelf), and at least for a time identify the two? Whereas it gives Occam a better shave if Khazad-dum/Moria/Nogrod, for a moment at least, was located in Nogrod's traditional position.

*Fangorn in these August 1939 notes (the beginning of the Third Phase) was seen as lying about the confluence of the Redway (> Silverlode) and the Great River; i.e. conceptually the later position of Lorien.

[Aiwendil]

War of the Jewels, p. 201. Pencilled emendations to the old QS manuscript, so that above "Nogrod, the Dwarfmine" is written "Dwarrowdelf;" and then in the margin

Ah, thanks. I'd thought you meant a LotR-related note.

But if so then why give Moria the established name of Nogrod (Khazad-dum, translated Dwarfmine and Dwarrowdelf), and at least for a time identify the two? Whereas it gives Occam a better shave if Khazad-dum/Moria/Nogrod, for a moment at least, was located in Nogrod's traditional position.

Well, it seems to me equally parsimonious to posit that the view expressed in the note on the QS manuscript had already been reached. We know that at some point the idea was Belegost in the Blue Mountains and Nogrod/Moria east in the Misty Mountains. Is it so implausible that this was the conception that underlay the third (and subsequent) phase(s) of LotR? There's apparently no hard evidence, but this seems to me just as likely as your alternative, that the Blue and the Misty Mountains were at that time one and the same.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Just for completeness' sake, I had forgotten some other details JDR brings up for the 'Beleriandic' nature of the (early) Hobbit geography: the first version of the Lonely Mountain map ("Fimbulfami's Map") shows the "Wild Wood" to the north-northwest of the mountain, with the Withered Heath beyond. And in the next map of the series, the Grey Mountains - Iron Hills chain describes a convex arc that immediately call to mind the Iron Mountains.

[Pitchwife]

Not to forget that in the first draft for the Council of Elrond, Elendil (aka Valandil/Orendil) was referred to as a Numenórean king ruling lands that had formerly been part of Beleriand; so obviously at this time Beleriand was conceived as not quite so completely sunken as it later turned out to be.

As for the Nogrod/Khazad-dûm/Longbeards question, the Etymologies, as far as I can see, don't offer any other possible meaning for Enfeng/Anfangrim than 'Longbeards'. So at the time Tolkien decided that Nogrod and Belegost were the homes of the Firebeards and Broadbeams, rather than the Longbeards, neither of those houses can have been called Enfeng any more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Not to forget that in the first draft for the Council of Elrond, Elendil (aka Valandil/Orendil) was referred to as a Numenórean king ruling lands that had formerly been part of Beleriand; so obviously at this time Beleriand was conceived as not quite so completely sunken as it later turned out to be.

Yes- a concept taken apparently from the ending of the Fall of Numenor

"But there remains still a legend of Beleriand: for that land in the west of the old world, although changed and broken, held still in ancient days to the name it had in the days of the Gnomes. And it is said that Amroth was King of Beleriand; and he took counsel with Elrond son of Earendel, and with such of the Elves as remained in the West; and they passed the Mountains and came to inner lands far from the sea, and they assailed the fortress of Thu. And Amroth wrestled with Thu and was slain; but Thu was brought to his knees, and his servants were dispelled; and the people of Beleriand destroyed his dwellings, and drove him forth, and he fled to a dark forest, and hid himself."

So not only was Beleriand at this time, shortly before the LR was begun, considered to have survived if in altered form, but it also had a substantial population, sufficient to generate an army capable of defeating Thu/Sauron.


So at the time Tolkien decided that Nogrod and Belegost were the homes of the Firebeards and Broadbeams, rather than the Longbeards, neither of those houses can have been called Enfeng any more.

Quite so- but the time in question was 1969 or later.