Garrison for the Rammas Echor

[Kuruharan]

This might be a question worthy of its own thread...

Gondor's population had fallen to the point where it needed something other than manpower to help

Was the population of Gondor as a whole reduced to such levels or was it mainly in the regions around Minas Tirith that suffered the most depopulation?

I was always sort of under the impression that the population of Gondor was more concentrated in the hinterlands and the Numenorian lineages (which would naturally have been concentrated around the centers of power) were the ones that were dying out.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This might be a question worthy of its own thread...

Was the population of Gondor as a whole reduced to such levels or was it mainly in the regions around Minas Tirith that suffered the most depopulation?

I was always sort of under the impression that the population of Gondor was more concentrated in the hinterlands and the Numenorian lineages (which would naturally have been concentrated around the centers of power) were the ones that were dying out.

I think Gondor as a whole had not suffered a decrease in population: it were mainly the lands bordering on Mordor: Ithilien (first and foremost), Anorien and Minas Tirith.
It seems people who had means to do so progressively abandoned Minas Tirith to settle on the other side of the mountains, in south-western Gondor. It was far more pleasant (ah, roses of Imloth Melui!) and peaceful land.

[Aelfwine]

Was the population of Gondor as a whole reduced to such levels or was it mainly in the regions around Minas Tirith that suffered the most depopulation?

Fine question Kuruharan and well met Gordis!

I will assume the construction of the Rammas to be after 2901 per your post, Gordis. The War of the Ring was 3019. By 3019, Minas Tirith was perhaps at 1/2 occupancy based upon the descriptions in LoTR. What about the rest of Gondor?

Let's see... (gotta love them appendices). During the reign of Telemnar (1636) we have the Great Plague then the Wainriders invade in 1851 (during which time Gondor loses its eastern territories. Minas Ithil is beseiged in 2000. In 2475 the attacks of Mordor upon Gondor are renewed and Osgiliath is ruined. In 2758 the Corsairs again attack Gondor. In 2901 most remaining inhabitants of Ithilien abandon that land under heavier attacks from Mordor. In preparation for the siege of Minas Tirith, troops from the outlying lands of Gondor are summoned and march into the City under Pippin's watchful eye, "but always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked."

Yes, the outlying lands had to prepare for attack as well, but Gondor clearly had undergone a great reduction in population over the centuries. Clearly the Numenoreans themselves were affected the most, but I doubt it could be said that the fading of Gondor was limited to Minas Tirith. And most of the diminution in population seems to result from events at or prior to 2901 when Gordis believes the Rammas was begun.

[denethorthefirst]

The Rammas Echor was built with "great labour" after "Ithilien fell under the shadow" of the Enemy. BTW: "Shadow" doesnt necessarily have to mean "Loss of Ithilien" or even "Attack", it could also mean that Ithilian was (or felt) threatened (Ithilien was under threat during the Wainrider-Wars!).
Because of the massive scope of the wall and the fact that it was crumbling in some parts before the war of the Ring i think that it was built rather earlier than later in the history of Gondor, when that country was still somewhat strong and in a position to plan and build architectural structures of near numenorean proportions. The earliest date would be III 2002 after the fall of Minas Ithil, the King probably thought it would be good for morale. However i think the likeliest date would be sometime after 2475 when the black uruks first appeared and swiftly conquered Ithilien and (East)Osgiliath. This sudden crushing defeat after over four-hundred years of peace must have come as quite a shock: a massive victorious army was at the doorsteps of the capital and a wall around the surroundings and farmlands of Minas Tirith might have been necessary to stop Raiding Bands and Scouts and to at least delay a potential invading army. Gondor also didnt win back Ithilien overnight but fought a long war to reconquer the country, and even after the final victory ithilien was certainly far from completely safe. Maybe the now deserted Osgiliath provided the building material for the wall (that would explain how an already decaying Gondor could build such a massive structure)?
Gondor was modeled after the Byzantine Empire and we have a Real-World version of the Rammas in the Anastasian Wall ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasian_Wall ), a large wall several kilometers west of Constantinopel built in the 6th. century by an Empire in Crisis for pretty much the same reasons as the Rammas: to deter the barbarians, to deflect small incursions and to at least delay large armies with siege equipment till the defense of the capital was ready.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

The Rammas Echor was built with "great labour" after "Ithilien fell under the shadow" of the Enemy. BTW: "Shadow" doesnt necessarily have to mean "Loss of Ithilien" or even "Attack", it could also mean that Ithilian was (or felt) threatened (Ithilien was under threat during the Wainrider-Wars!).
Because of the massive scope of the wall and the fact that it was crumbling in some parts before the war of the Ring i think that it was built rather earlier than later in the history of Gondor, when that country was still somewhat strong and in a position to plan and build architectural structures of near numenorean proportions. The earliest date would be III 2002 after the fall of Minas Ithil, the King probably thought it would be good for morale. However i think the likeliest date would be sometime after 2475 when the black uruks first appeared and swiftly conquered Ithilien and (East)Osgiliath. This sudden crushing defeat after over four-hundred years of peace must have come as quite a shock: a massive victorious army was at the doorsteps of the capital and a wall around the surroundings and farmlands of Minas Tirith might have been necessary to stop Raiding Bands and Scouts and to at least delay a potential invading army. Gondor also didnt win back Ithilien overnight but fought a long war to reconquer the country, and even after the final victory ithilien was certainly far from completely safe. Maybe the now deserted Osgiliath provided the building material for the wall (that would explain how an already decaying Gondor could build such a massive structure)?
Gondor was modeled after the Byzantine Empire and we have a Real-World version of the Rammas in the Anastasian Wall ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasian_Wall ), a large wall several kilometers west of Constantinopel built in the 6th. century by an Empire in Crisis for pretty much the same reasons as the Rammas: to deter the barbarians, to deflect small incursions and to at least delay large armies with siege equipment till the defense of the capital was ready.

Interesting thoughts, denethorthefirst. There certainly seems to be a wide range of opinion as to when the Rammas was built. The earliest date, as you point out, would have been after the fall of Minas Ithil (2002). A popular date on this thread is 2901, but I have seen other sources suggesting as late as 2954. I have also read at the Encylopedia of Arda that Tolkien in his unused detailed index for LOTR said that it was built during Denethor's reign ... which would mean after 2984! Unless Tolkien meant Denethor I ... who was reigning in 2475 when Osgiliath fell. Actually, when you think about it, that makes a lot of sense.

The difficulty with the later dates (as you imply) is that parts of the wall were already falling into ruin by 3018. Another thing in favour of an earlier date is the amount of manpower required to build a 30 mile long wall (let alone man it). By 3018 we see that there is probably insufficient manpower to even attend to many of the ruined sections ... so would there really have been enough manpower to build the Rammas one hundred years earlier?

It does seem odd to think of the wall being partially ruined so soon after it was built, whether in 2901, 2954 or after 2984. On the other hand, if the wall was built shortly after 2475, then a partly ruined wall some 500 or so years later seems much more likely.

[Elmo]

The Great War of China, like Rammas Echor probs, had a certain symbolic value more than a physically defensive one. It said 'oh ye Wild Men, why bother trying to fight us when we are capable of building so amazing a structure'. Definitely a bit of power projection going on in such constructions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I had always assumed the reference was to the fall of Ithilien and East Osgiliath in Denethor I's time (although the EoA refernce to the Index I suspect has been garbled with DII's attempt belatedly to restore them).* Clearly the Rammas are some centuries old.

However, it's possible that they were even older, associated with the building of the beacon on Amon Din** and the fortification of Cair Andros, all the way back in the last days of the Kings, in which case the reference to Ithilien being under "shadow" would apply to the fall of Minas Ithil in 2000, or even the Wainrider/Harad alliance which nearly wrecked the kingdom in 1944.

Still, I think it is more likely that it was indeed the disaster of 2475 and the presence of the enemy in force just over the River, separated only by a bridge from MT's own townlands, which was the impetus for their fortification. It certainly can't be coincidence that the heaviest fortifications were devoted to the gate and causeway leading to Osgiliath- there was hardly a need so long as Osgiliath remained a fortress of Gondor.

-------------------------------------
* For centuries it was thought that the wall built across northern Britain under Hadrian was the work of Septimus- since his inscriptions are all over it from the time he reconstructed it in stone ca. 200. Gildas was actually correct about the two walls and the identity of the Emperor who built the second, stone one- once you realize he wasn't talking about the Antonine wall at all, which he probably never heard of. The original construction under Hadrian was largely an earthwork (a fact not known until modern archaeology).

**Din was much older than the rest of the beacon-chain, which of course arose after the cession of Calenardhon to the Rohirrim. Din was built originally to relay communications between the City and Cair Andros.