Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

This is an excellent question.

I don't really have much of an answer for it, but one thing that comes to mind is maybe it has something to do with the Elven/Valar ultimate envying of Men in their ability to escape the Circles of the World. The Valar maybe persisted in giving the children of Elrond the choice because of their own (the Valar's) possibly growing desire to escape.

[Galin]

Here's my theory anyway. And if it doesn't work I might try to think up another

It's based on some text from Quenta Silmarillion (section 9, The Conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings), in which it is said:

'(...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

This is from the version of QS dated mid to late 1930s. If this idea is still in play at least (and I'm not sure that it is), Arwen and her brothers were arguably mortal by default.

This might explain why the choice was extended to Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir -- one parent had chosen the fate of Elves, the other was an Elf, and without being granted other doom their children would, due to still having some measure of mortal blood, be automatically sundered from their parents. This would be a great grief as we know, and a sundering beyond death.

If this holds water, would it not seem fair to someone who might choose an Elvish fate that his children not be automatically mortal? I mean it would arguably tip the scales of the choice before it was made, as Elrond would at least want the hope that his children could pass with him Over Sea.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Once Elros had made his mind up to become mortal, his choice was binding upon his descendants. So presumably Elrond's choice should have been binding upon HIS descendants.

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien). So it's logical to assume that Elrond's descendants, being in effect Elves, could renounce immortality or sail to the West.

I think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien)

But Luthien was a very, very special case, a unique case: one where Mandos and Manwe made an exception to 'the Rules' only with Eru's express permission.

[Mithadan]

Mouth of Sauron's reference to Elrond's children having "the life of the Eldar" was a statement made by Arwen herself quoted in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. It is interesting that Arwen should use such unqualified language.

In 'Many Partings', Arwen tells Frodo "mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter." This choice was apparently made in Caras Galadhon even before she and Aragorn were wed. Appendix A discusses Elrong learning "the choice of his daughter" shortly after Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth. Then as Aragorn speaks to Arwen as he lays in Rath Dinen, she reiterates "that choice is long over."

These quotes suggest that her unique circumstances, her love for a Man at an important juncture in time, somehow allowed her to make the Choice of Luthien, i.e. she was an Elf, by birth not by choice, who was allowed to live the life of a Man. This is consonant with the language from 'Akallabeth' I quote above and my interpretation of that language (which is logical and consistent).

Where there is conflict is the language used by Elrond, speaking to Aragorn years before Caras Galadhon. There Elrond says, as Galin mentions, 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn (this might be important, these words are spoken only days after they first met and years before they fell in love).

Can the language be reconciled? Should we reject the statement in 'Akallabeth' because it was published posthumously? Should we discount the quotes in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' becuase the appendices were completed hurriedly and likely lack the attention for detail Tolkien accorded LoTR itself? Or are the words of Elrond ambiguous enough to be interpreted otherwise?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think there's a meaningful contradiction unless we want to indulge in unrealistic legalisms. The 'legal' position regarding the Halfelven (admittedly unclear) was laid out by the Valar at the end of the First Age.

Statement one (from A&A) and Statement 2 (from Akallabeth) on the "life of the Eldar" aren't contradictory at all. Arwen is speaking in the present tense: rather obviously, she and her brothers have been enjoying the life of the Eldar for centuries, and will continue to do so for a while.

Nor is Cerin Amroth really a contradiction. Whenever according to The Rules her choice might have become operative and irreversible, as far as Arwen herself was concerned her sworn word to marry Aragorn made it inevitable at some point in the future. That doesn't mean that her "Elvish life" was suddenly terminated at that moment.

When did it happen, i.e. at what precise moment was Arwen's future permanently switched from the "quasi-immortal/Mandos" track to the "mortal/Heaven" track? Dunno. Possibly when Elrond took ship, but I don't think so. It probably was the act of physical union with a mortal, by analogy to Melian becoming fully incarnate by similar means- and already just after her wedding Arwen told Frodo that she could not sail West. Perhaps we could also look at Elladan and Elrohir, who plainly stayed on past Elrond's departure, but who also (I am convinced) would never have abandoned their parents and pretty much everyone they had ever known for all eternity, and thus remained of the Elf-kind.

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.

This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn

Well, yes, she does: but why would she choose to become mortal, except for her love for a mortal? (To take a trivial analogy: I always had the theoretical option to become a Catholic, but no real reason to exercise it and join the Rome Team until I married a Papist).

[Galin]

In 1972 Tolkien appears to make a distinction (letter 345): 'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.'

To my mind Arwen's satement: 'Do not wonder! for the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar.' isn't exactly the same thing as simply saying 'we are Elves' (in any case). I think her choice historically echoes that of Luthien (an immortal in any event), in ways similar enough to draw connections, but as WCH notes, Luthien was a unique case.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.

I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband. But this was never an option for her, although she might have wavered slightly when returning to the woodland realm. She had made the choice of Lúthien, to share the fate of her love, and had no intention of backing out of the deal. An absurdly idealised love story, but Tolkien was a grade A romantic, I suppose.

Makes you think of Elros too... Did he 'accept his gift' as a compulsion due to physical weariness, ie aging, or did he eventually do it to stay true to his word? He too was only a quarter of a man.