Hurt & Heal V: Ainur (non-Valar)

[the phantom]

If either Gandalf or Sauron had actually won a contest, I would say yes, keep them out.

But seeing as we're eventually going to have a Tournament of Champions (the people on the list will be previous winners) it seems a shame not to include characters and deny them the chance to win.

Gandalf and Sauron won't be able to be in the Elf, Man, Dwarf, Evil Minion, Female, weapons/armor, or Valar contest, so I don't think it'd be fair to keep them out of this contest that they actually qualify for.

And Ungolient is fine because this isn't a Maia contest. It's open to all the Ainur who were not among the Valar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, phanston, I guess Lalaith's point might as well have been that Ungoliant is not Ainu at all. But I am fine with considering her as an Ainu, or even as a Maia.

But Gandalf and Sauron are too much, in my opinion. Curumo is still yet okay, he is a bit on the edge, but I think there might be some considerably strong clique against him. But these two guys... no way. Haven't they been in the first one, or something like that?

[Lalaith]

That's the thing. I don't think she's Ainu, she's something Other. The darkness and chaos and all that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

See? I said that

Anyway, one thing to add to this Gandalf and Sauron - they could be in the contest "the biggest heroes" or something. Or "the most typical heroes". Or "the biggest bosses". Along with Morgoth and a some others (we might classify. Fëanor or Galadriel come to my mind).

[Gordis]

I think "the biggest bosses" is a good idea for the future game - so we can indeed leave Gandy, Sau and Saruman out of this one.

Then such nice Maiar as Eonwe or Uinen would get a fair chance.

[the phantom]

Since we'll probably have a "monsters" and/or "other" H & H game in the future, it might make sense to leave Ungolient off this one. Though she could easily be explained as an Ainu in the Silmarillion and in other writings, in some earlier stuff she was something else and even later she is not defined specifically.

So, yeah, we can leave her off if you don't want to see her now.

As far as purposefully excluding "popular" characters, thus far we certainly haven't been doing that to extreme measures. In the previous rounds we've included Turin, Hurin, The Witch King, Sauron, Saruman, Luthien, Ulmo, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Aragorn, Fingolfin, Eowyn, Gimli, Frodo, Sam, Feanor, and Glorfindel... and guess what? None of them won.

Now, I seem to recall Melkor being spoken against in one of the previous rounds because of his status, but then surely we'll allow him to compete when it's his time, right? (The Valar round most likely.)

Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway?

Meh, you people decide. If we can fill the list up to 20 without them and you want to see them left off, I'm cool with it.

Approved-

• Aiwendil
• Alatar
• Arien
• Durin's Bane
• Eonwe
• Melian
• Osse
• Pallando
• Tilion
• Uinen

Being discussed-

• Curunir
• Gothmog
• Olorin
• Sauron
• Ungolient

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Then what about a Maia this round? This is their time, isn't it? They won't be in the next eight or so games for sure. So do we deny popular characters the chance to win their division just because we think they're too likely to win, despite the fact that half of us would no doubt try and keep them from winning anyway?

Well, but that is actually also half of the point. That's why I think those guys should have their own cathegory. Because basically, against the "normal" characters, in fact everybody would wish them to win - so that's one reason why not allow them - and at the same time, some people would not wish them to win just based on principle: and that basically puts them in a completely different game, so to say. So I am against introducing them here.