Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I would read that as implying that they are being compared to Elf-lords, which implies that they are not, in fact, Elf-lords.

It's a description by one of the characters, not by the narrator. The character then says "and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond". Which I interpret as saying "Silly me, of course they look like elf-lords, they are the sons of the Lord of Rivendell himself". I don't think it is ever suggested that Elrond himself looks more like a Man than an Elf.

I suspect that not all Elves necessarily have a noble and gallant bearing - I liken Elladan and Elrohir to Elves like Gil-Galad and Glorfindel. Elves who are handy with a sword and a spear and also born to rule.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal. They were just mortal men with really LONG lifespans.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway? I don't think that Elros' offspring could chose whether or not they could be mortal or immortal.

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

[Galin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway?

I would say both Elros and Elrond's children had the same choice in potential (both are 'potential immortals' for example), but only the children of the immortal need be given the choice.

The mortal (once chosen) will essentially restore the natural order of Eru without sundering child from parent, and the special dispensation given to Earendil and Elwing need not be extended yet again in this circumstance.

[Mithadan]

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves. Elros chose to be a mortal Man and his wife was mortal as well. The children of Elros were Men and thus could not be denied the Gift of Iluvatar. I do not think that a residual percentage of Elvish blood would change this conclusion.

The Half-Elven created a dilemna for the Valar, which was resolved by a hard and fast rule, at least for those who chose mortality. The applicable quote is

"in this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.

Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros had this choice.

Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well? Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no. The quotes attributed to Elrond, above, and the excerpts from Letters, suggest the answer may be yes. Arwen's statements are equivocal; she says that she was granted the choice of Luthien, which is a different matter altogether. Yet even Elrond's statement is somewhat equivocal. He says 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' While this hints at the existence of a choice, it may be that all he means is that she is an Elf and whether or not she departs with him into the West, she remains an Elf.

If we accept Manwe's statement, Elrond's children have no choice. Elrond's decision is binding upon them. If this is the case, maybe only Arwen was granted the choice of Luthien. Given Elrond's grief at their parting "that should endure beyond the ends of the world", it seems clear that she is granted leave to live the life of a mortal Man. She did not merely die of grief as an Elf. Perhaps this is the simplest answer; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen lacked the choice of the Half-Elven and Arwen's was a special case.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no.

But unless I'm much mistaken, that quote comes from QS37, which was written before Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were invented.

I think that in light of that fact, it's much easier to suppose that Manwe's speech is to be amended than that Tolkien's statement in Letters was blatantly false.

[Mithadan]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

This is, of course, the difficulty in attempting to analyse this and many other issues in any of Tolkien's writings beyond the Hobbit and LoTR. We can drive ourselves crazy arguing about whether CT's Silmarillion is in any way "authoratative', and what JRRT intended and when.

Letter 153 dates to 1954 and discusses Elladan and Elrohir delaying their choice and attributes the choice to all of the Half-Elven. This Letter also states that Elros' choice was irrevocable and binding upon his descendants, by the way. Letter 211, from 1958, states that the names Elladan and Elrohir both signify "Elf+Man".

From these references, we can make predictions about what Tolkien may ultimately have decided, but even then there is no certainty. Until a final version hits the bookshelves, he could change his mind, as he often did. The problem is he never published the Silmarillion or any of the related works found in Unfinished Tales and HoME. And the last thing I want to do now is try to decide what is "canon".

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves.

If this is in response to my recent post I must emphasize my 'in potential'

(...) Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well?

'But to the Children of Elrond a choice was also appointed...' (Appendix A). Tolkien's letter seems in agreement with this much, that they too had a choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes).

The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, that's rather the point: Elros' children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Why? The only explanation I can think of is the priority given to the "Gift of Men." (Of course, Elros' children lived as and among Men, and were themselves more than three-quarters human, whereas the reverse was true of Arwen and her brothers).

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

It is not stated what happened to the two brothers, but it seems that they would have been mentioned somewhere in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen if they were still around 120 years after Elrond left. The same might be said of Celeborn, however, since one would think that Arwen might seek out her grandfather at this point. The implication is that all of the High Elves were gone by this time...

[CSteefel]

On the subject of Arwen's death (or the reason for it), I take it as being similar to the acceptance of death by Aragorn himself, and his Numenorean ancestors. They because weary with life and gave it up at some level willingly, that is, without descending into decrepitude and senility. It is said in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen that initially

She was not weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of mortality...

but that she quickly became so once Aragorn died, since

the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter...

Interestingly, the situation seems a little different with respect to Luthien, whose death seems to have been accelerated by the fact that she held one of the Simaril...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Or the other question is why in fact would Elros have chosen mortality. Seems like a bad deal when two Ages of Men later Elrond is attending parties and listening to Bilbo's verse in the comfort of Rivendell, while Elros his brother had been dead for 6,000 years or so.

Which brings me back to a point that may bear on Elrohir and Elladan's decision (assuming they had one). Why would they choose to be mortal? In the case of both Arwen and Luthien, it seems to be a case where love for a mortal man is stronger than the desire for immortality, but it is not particularly clear what the attraction for Elrohir and Elladan would be. Although the same could be said for Elros...

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

(Elves) cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Rather than being "mortal by default", the statement seems to be that they have the life of the Eldar by default based on what Elrond says in Appendix A:

The life of the Eldar until the choice is made, that's how I would put it -- at least with respect to fate, which is the main concern.

'But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world.'

As I read it this can easily mean that Arwen will have no reason to choose mortality -- in other words, Elrond knows his daughter, and thus knows she will likely pass Over Sea with him if Aragorn were not in the picture. Aragorn has just said (directly before this) that the choice must soon be laid on your children, and Elrond responded 'Truly'... and then goes on to say the part you quoted. This fits with the earlier statement in Appendix A.

Arwen is not default immortal nor default mortal by virtue of the choice -- and Luthien is an exception. Arwen's choice merely echoes that of Luthien's, and she would have arguably chosen an Elven fate had not Aragorn been in the picture (again, which is what I glean from the quote you posted).

Theoretically 'a mortal' of course, but as the history turned out, specifically Aragorn and Beren.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There is evidence in the books that immortality can be a two-edged sword. Consider the speech given to the Númenórean King Tar-Atanamir by Elves:

Coming from the Elves themselves, that would seem to indicate at least some of them are not terribly enamored with their life potential.
Perhaps Elros (or the sons of Elrond) would have had similar thoughts.

Interesting perspective.

Otherwise, I might have guessed that there was something about the Elven life that left the individuals disconnected--Elros, for example, was offered a chance to rule a kingdom. The argument against would be that Elrond was able to found and lead Rivendell for thousands of years, although at the end of the Third Age certainly the Elves were marginalized. Perhaps initially the important role for Elrond beyond that of a mostly spiritual and scholarly life was less clear. For Arwen, it would also be a choice between going to the Undying Lands or having some part in ruling a kingdom of men. Even before the First Age, we see Galadriel getting antsy to strike out on her own and rule a kingdom, which is one of the explanations for her leaving for Middle Earth in the first place.

[Galin]

Well, it's a mortal perspective that sometimes puts the Elvish longevity ('immortality' of the Elves) above the gift of God to Men, but also, there is the idea that the gift will come to be envied by the Elves, and 'which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy' (from The Silmarillion, chapter Of The Beginning Of Days).

In letter 156 (1954) Tolkien wrote that in the view of the myth, Death, or the mere shortness of human life-span, is not a punishment for the Fall, and: 'The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time.'

And in 1958, draft letter 212:

'Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric (...) This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death -- not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one.'

In 1963 (letter 245) Tolkien says that the Elves believed death meant: 'liberation from the circles of the world', and was in this respect to them enviable. And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne.' And in the Athrabeth (1959-ish) Finrod does say that: 'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. (...) But is it not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.' And in the Commentary to the Athrabeth: 'men were, of course, in general entirely ignorant of the 'Shadow Ahead' which conditioned Elvish thought and feeling, and simply envied Elvish 'immortality'.

After the Athrabeth, Tolkien makes the point that it is a conversation, and it may have some interest for men who start with similar beliefs or assumptions to those held by the Elvish King Finrod. And it is specifically said that the Elves, observing that all Men died (a fact confirmed by Men), held that death was natural, and that the fear (plural of fea) of Men left Time sooner or later, and never returned. More generally, in 1956 Tolkien explained (letter 186):

'The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete.'

And in his essay on Fairy Stories: 'And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy-stories provide many examples and modes of this (...) Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.'

And it might be added too that immortality is the natural state of the Elves of course, and Tolkien refers to this also as a special gift to them: 'Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (...) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.' These last two bits of information come once again from the famed letter 153 -- I note this considering that I think, in the books, Tolkien has a least implied the Sons of Elrond chose mortality -- versus this letter where he says they delayed their choice after Elrond left, but what can I do.