Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Galin]

Didn't Elros already choose his childrens' fate anyway?

I would say both Elros and Elrond's children had the same choice in potential (both are 'potential immortals' for example), but only the children of the immortal need be given the choice.

The mortal (once chosen) will essentially restore the natural order of Eru without sundering child from parent, and the special dispensation given to Earendil and Elwing need not be extended yet again in this circumstance.

[Mithadan]

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves. Elros chose to be a mortal Man and his wife was mortal as well. The children of Elros were Men and thus could not be denied the Gift of Iluvatar. I do not think that a residual percentage of Elvish blood would change this conclusion.

The Half-Elven created a dilemna for the Valar, which was resolved by a hard and fast rule, at least for those who chose mortality. The applicable quote is

"in this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.

Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros had this choice.

Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well? Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no. The quotes attributed to Elrond, above, and the excerpts from Letters, suggest the answer may be yes. Arwen's statements are equivocal; she says that she was granted the choice of Luthien, which is a different matter altogether. Yet even Elrond's statement is somewhat equivocal. He says 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' While this hints at the existence of a choice, it may be that all he means is that she is an Elf and whether or not she departs with him into the West, she remains an Elf.

If we accept Manwe's statement, Elrond's children have no choice. Elrond's decision is binding upon them. If this is the case, maybe only Arwen was granted the choice of Luthien. Given Elrond's grief at their parting "that should endure beyond the ends of the world", it seems clear that she is granted leave to live the life of a mortal Man. She did not merely die of grief as an Elf. Perhaps this is the simplest answer; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen lacked the choice of the Half-Elven and Arwen's was a special case.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Manwe's speech, quoted above suggests the answer here is no.

But unless I'm much mistaken, that quote comes from QS37, which was written before Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen were invented.

I think that in light of that fact, it's much easier to suppose that Manwe's speech is to be amended than that Tolkien's statement in Letters was blatantly false.

[Mithadan]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

This is, of course, the difficulty in attempting to analyse this and many other issues in any of Tolkien's writings beyond the Hobbit and LoTR. We can drive ourselves crazy arguing about whether CT's Silmarillion is in any way "authoratative', and what JRRT intended and when.

Letter 153 dates to 1954 and discusses Elladan and Elrohir delaying their choice and attributes the choice to all of the Half-Elven. This Letter also states that Elros' choice was irrevocable and binding upon his descendants, by the way. Letter 211, from 1958, states that the names Elladan and Elrohir both signify "Elf+Man".

From these references, we can make predictions about what Tolkien may ultimately have decided, but even then there is no certainty. Until a final version hits the bookshelves, he could change his mind, as he often did. The problem is he never published the Silmarillion or any of the related works found in Unfinished Tales and HoME. And the last thing I want to do now is try to decide what is "canon".

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I do not think that Elros' children had the option of choosing to be numbered among the Elves.

If this is in response to my recent post I must emphasize my 'in potential'

(...) Which circles back to the original question. Did Elladan and Elrohir have this choice as well?

'But to the Children of Elrond a choice was also appointed...' (Appendix A). Tolkien's letter seems in agreement with this much, that they too had a choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes).

The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil).

[Galin]

And WCH means the speech in the constructed Silmarillion is direct from the 1937 Silmarillion (Manwe's speech), but not exactly, as (for example) the part I refer to (and WCH quoted)...

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

... is not in the 1977 version.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

Oops. Was this from a private communication?