Immortality and the sons of Elrond - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-06-2009, 04:26 PM

Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears.

And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes).

The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil).

Galin · 05-06-2009, 08:40 PM

And WCH means the speech in the constructed Silmarillion is direct from the 1937 Silmarillion (Manwe's speech), but not exactly, as (for example) the part I refer to (and WCH quoted)...

'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...'

... is not in the 1977 version.

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-06-2009, 09:36 PM

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

Galin · 05-06-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children.

Oops. Was this from a private communication?

William Cloud Hicklin · 05-06-2009, 10:17 PM

No, it's just my surmise: but I reckon it would be seen as 'superseded' after Elrond's children were invented and an extended Choice into the third generation added.

Galin · 05-06-2009, 10:22 PM

Oh, OK.

I'm sure Christopher Tolkien had his reasons, but maybe they were something other than having to do with Elrond's children? maybe Elrond's children would have been 'default mortal' (by having some measure of mortal blood), but yet they had other doom extended to them?

Mithalwen · 05-07-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Oh, OK. But I'm not sure why it need be superseded. Can't Elrond's children be 'default mortal' by having some measure of mortal blood? Unless (as happened) other doom was also extended to them.

If Arwen were mortal by default then the doom of Luthien is irrelevant. She is mortal, falls in love with a mortal. No big deal. The terrible doom would be Elrond's (as was presumably Mithrellas) to be the immortal parent of mortal children.

05-06-2009, 04:26 PM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Manwe's speech is from the Silmarillion, as published for what it's worth. I have not checked any of Tolkien's post-LoTR drafts to see if this speech appears. And taken direct from QS (1937)- Tolkien never returned to the Voyage of Earendil post-LR (save some cursory name-changes). The work of the Fifties only got as far as Turin's death (+Hurin in Brethil). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-06-2009, 09:36 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	You're right, Galin, I should have checked. But in that case, CT left off that bit precisely because he deemed it to conflict with what JRRT later wrote re Elrond's children. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-06-2009, 10:17 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	No, it's just my surmise: but I reckon it would be seen as 'superseded' after Elrond's children were invented and an extended Choice into the third generation added. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

05-06-2009, 10:22 PM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Oh, OK. I'm sure Christopher Tolkien had his reasons, but maybe they were something other than having to do with Elrond's children? maybe Elrond's children would have been 'default mortal' (by having some measure of mortal blood), but yet they had other doom extended to them? Last edited by Galin; 05-09-2009 at 08:31 PM.

05-06-2009, 08:40 PM	#2
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	And WCH means the speech in the constructed Silmarillion is direct from the 1937 Silmarillion (Manwe's speech), but not exactly, as (for example) the part I refer to (and WCH quoted)... 'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...' ... is not in the 1977 version.