Boromir and his search for Rivendell

[Formendacil]

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?

Also I'm also pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Gondor kept a small garrison of "Soldiers and Engineers" at Tharbad up until about a hundred years before the War of the Ring.

Tharbad ain't all that far from Rivendell.

[Boromir88]

Aye, I am unsure if this info would have been available in Gondor Rivendell was in a valley and it was well hidden. Elrond established it as a refuge, and I don't think Sauron ever found it's location and I doubt many in Gondor (by this time) would have known.

Both Faramir and Boro went to Denethor about the dream they had to go to Imladris. Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location. Add to that Boro lost his horse in Tharbad, and you get a long journey.

Edit:

I seem to remember reading that Arnor and Gondor were jointly responsible for the maintenance of the Great Road up till the middle of the Third Age. Surely that implies an interchange of knowledge ?~MoS

Not necessarily, joint maintenance of roads is not always pleasant let me tell you. If you ever wonder why County line roads in the U.S are some of the worst in shape, it's because the two counties always argue about who should do what - or some of the bridges over train tracks, I am always in arguments with train companies over who is responsible. And I don't want to go into the "communication" back-n-forth if you can even call it that.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Denethor was supposedly the wisest loreman in Gondor and it seemed he was only able to give a rough idea of the location.

Ah, perhaps the issue is the nature of higher learning in Tolkien.

Saruman also devoted himself to lore and succumbed to the rapacious effects of the knowledge he gained. Deep and extended study drove Denethor farther and farther into a sense of empowerment, with disasterous consequences.

There's a difference between great knowledge and wisdom in Middle-earth, and Rivendell was a place of wisdom. So that understanding terrain and geography and place is less a question of knowing the map and more a matter of having the right mind--that is, one which can approach a more elvish way of thinking.

I wasn't being flippant when I linked to Shangri La and Lost Horizons.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's a difference between great knowledge and wisdom in Middle-earth, and Rivendell was a place of wisdom. So that understanding terrain and geography and place is less a question of knowing the map and more a matter of having the right mind--that is, one which can approach a more elvish way of thinking.

I wasn't being flippant when I linked to Shangri La and Lost Horizons.

But on the other hand, Boromir who wasn't particularly elvish in his thinking did get there.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

But on the other hand, Boromir who wasn't particularly elvish in his thinking did get there.

True enough, for he is like to Isildur. The Numemorians like all Men had their stubborn pride. However, consider the quest which brought him to Rivendell. He came not for war, but to seek counsel and "the unravelling of hard words" of a dream.

Faramir had the dream many times, but Boromir himself also had the prophetic dream. In our haste to castigate him for his pride and arrogance--which I admit I have oft been ready to do--it is well to remember that he too is capable of dreaming dreams that make Middle earth a magical place. Boromir heard the voice fortelling the forging of the sword and the finding of the Ring, which is not a particularly mannish night time activity.

If he was worthy of receiving the dream, he was worthy of finding the hidden realm.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The problem with the Palantir is that you have to know where to look

Try this: my house is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA. Now, find it in Google Earth.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

One thing that should not be forgot is that 3000 years passed between Isildur's day and Boromir's. Trying to find Rivendell on the basis of information that old would be like trying to find Babylon on the basis of a text from Homer's day. Not impossible, perhaps, but definitely difficult.

Of course, Gondor had a continuous history throughout that time--but even if you look at ancient Egypt, going from the foundation of the Old Kingdom, c.-3100 B.C., to the time of Cleopatra, c.-50 B.C., I doubt there was all that much information from the dawn of ancient Egypt that was likely still in circulation under the Ptolemies.

Mind you--I'm overlooking the fact that Egypt started out primitive (technologically and communicatively) and advanced as it headed towards the Annis Domini, whereas Gondor started out in all its Númenorean splendour--but I think it's still fair to say that such information could certainly be lost over time--and Boromir seems to have been sent off rather rapidly. I doubt a full search of Gondor's archives, such as Gandalf made to find Isildur's note, would have had time to be made.

It is an interesting point of comparison here.

The Egyptians themselves had some very strange notions about their earliest history and (not to get into too much detail here, there is some of this in Herodotus if people are interested in following this up) even their memories and understanding of their recent past could at times be very muddled. And they were one of the people's of antiquity who were most concerned with their history.

I believe it is very difficult to truly understand the vastness of the times that Tolkien's world encompassed, I'm honestly not sure Tolkien himself dealt with it (or maybe rather conveyed it) effectively.

Boro you work in transportation planning too?

[radagastly]

From "The Council of Elrond:

"So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men."

Granted, Gandalf is referring to lore about the ring, but it implies that even lore-masters (like Denethor) have forgotten many things, including what little they knew of the location of Imladris. It was never well known:

From 'The Tale of Years,' appendix B, "The Return of the King":

1695-Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.

1697-Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.

1699-Sauron overruns Eriador.

1700-Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.

1701-Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

c. 1800-From about this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.

This shows that Rivendell existed only three years of the war before Sauron was defeated, and that Imladris was established as a "refuge," and Gondor/Arnor were only beginning to be established. Numenor was still at the height of it's power. Across the sea, I suspect maps of Middle-Earth (as much as WE all delight in them,) would have been scarce, if they existed at all. Certainly, none of them would have contained a detailed location of Imladris. It was, after all, a "refuge," in a world where Sauron not only still existed, but could still maintain a pleasing, charming form. It's location, especially since it contained one of the Three Rings, would not have been advertised, especially to Numenor, where "Alatar" resided. Elrond would never have taken such a chance.

So, in Minas Tirith, there would have remained VERY little information to start with, and even those who studied such things (not Denethor, surely. He would have prefered accounts of battles and strategies,) would have had very little information to convey to Boromir before he set out. In fact the only information that he seemed to have, comes from Boromir's own quote during the Council of Elrond:

Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.

Actually, the fact that Boromir found Rivendell at all may be a case of intervention from Eru. How else could he have stumbled upon such a place, designed to be hidden, concealed by the Elves, an ancient legend, at best, as far as his people were concerned, and probably disguised from outsiders by Elrond's Ring? The odds of Boromir finding it then were about as good as the odds of you finding it now!

[Gordis]

I agree.

Despite the fact that Isildur himself had dwelt in Rivendell for a time with his sons while the army of the Last Alliance had been gathered there, it looks like neither of them left notes about its exact location. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Men swore to Elrond not to disclose its location afterwards. Secrecy was the main defense of the place, after all.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Gordis:

Despite the fact that Isildur himself had dwelt in Rivendell for a time with his sons while the army of the Last Alliance had been gathered there, it looks like neither of them left notes about its exact location. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Men swore to Elrond not to disclose its location afterwards. Secrecy was the main defense of the place, after all.

Yeah. It would be the equivalent of a modern Macedonian trying to find a Tibetan temple that may or may not even exist, based on information that Alexander the Great may or may not have even transcribed.

[Rumil]

If I remember Boromir turned up apparently 'out of the blue' at the right time at Rivendell. Probably an argument for Eru's noodly appendage playing a part. .

However I've wondered if Elrond generally sent some sort of 'confuslement field' type vibe (magic whatever) to keep Rivendell hidden from undesirables, but could switch it to an 'attraction field' when there was a visitor who was welcome. Speculation I know but Saruman ceratinly sent some 'force' that hindered the three hunters and someone commented on how difficult Rivendell was to find (perhaps Gandalf in The Hobbit?)

[Kuruharan]

We have a splendid example of that in Melian and Doriath.

At least as far as deterrance...and she couldn't keep Beren out, but it seems similar.