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05-05-2009, 05:49 PM | #1 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Nazgûl Purgatory
Forgive me if this has been discussed here previously. I couldn't find anything recent, but nearly everything has been brought up on this forum at some time or other.
Not too long ago, while looking for a suitable P of F quote I stumbled upon this: Quote:
The other side? Of what? Somehow Gorbag doesn't seem to be speaking of death there. I'm reminded of the well known quote from the Witch-king: Quote:
Gorbag and the Black Captain appear to be referring to the same thing. The question is, what is this they reference? A place of physical and spirtual torture? 'Skin the body off you' certainly seems to indicate physical death, but the Lord of the Nazgûl states his threat is not to kill. Consciousness apparently survives in both cases. Thoughts?
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05-05-2009, 06:05 PM | #2 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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Was Gorbag not just employing some sort of orcish black humour? When you the Nazgul kills you you'll be cold in the afterlife because it will have taken your skin in this life. hahaha sounds hilarious.
I'm sure the houses of lamentations are the torture chambers in Barad-Dur.
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05-05-2009, 06:59 PM | #3 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I suppose it's possible, but the tone of the words didn't seem humorous to me. He seemed to be genuinely fearful.
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05-05-2009, 07:14 PM | #4 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Interesting find and questions. I would not under estimate the possible spiritual, or some kind of connection to the parallel world of the Wraiths - living in both the seen and the unseen. "The houses of Lamentation" being in this "other side" Gorbag refers to, and is a place that does not sound like it would be humorous to be in.
I wonder about a mythological reference too, because there were 5 rivers that seperated Hades from the world of the living. The most well known is the River Styx, the River of hate. However, there is also Cocytus - the river of lamentation and the myth to this river is interesting considering the question. It was on the banks of the river of lamentation where the unburried wandered aimlessly for hundreds of years. Also, I think what Gandalf and Eowyn say to the Witch-King may be important - what it tells us I don't know - but I will just bring it up to further consider the question: Quote:
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05-06-2009, 06:00 AM | #5 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Most interesting topic.
As to the meaning of the WK' words to Eowyn, I guess "thy flesh shall be devoured" might be simply an euphemism for fading, becoming invisible. See what Eowyn replied to the WK in the LOTR draft, HOME 8: Quote:
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Could it be much the same with orcs? "Skin the body off you" doesn't sound like violent death and skinning. The orcs wouldn't be so impressed by simple physical violence, torture and the ugliest methods of death. They were experts at it themselves. And the Orcs were indeed impresed beyond words by what the nazgul could do: Quote:
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05-06-2009, 11:18 AM | #6 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Most impressive topic! I have been always intrigued by that quote of Gorbag - this is why I referred to him "the only Orc who speaks of metaphysics". Okay, a few thoughts.
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I always imagined something horrible under that: like, really being brought in front of Sauron, while one's physical body would be really consumed, and only the spirit will remain - but for Sauron, it will be still visible, and he will be penetrating it with his gaze. Something similar was referred to by Lúthien, I believe, when Huan held Sauron by the throat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth: Quote:
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05-06-2009, 06:49 PM | #7 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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May or may not be relevant...
But I can think of one more example of torment--not from the Nine, mind, but from Barad-dur itself: what would have happened to Frodo without the grace of Gollum.
Granted, both these examples are sketchy: one is the Mouth of Sauron trying to trick Gandalf & co. into following his terms, and the other is Tolkien himself speculating in Letters, but here you go: Quote:
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It seems to be implying that wherever this place is, it would leave the body intact enough for the spirit to still be attached to it: otherwise most people would not be able to see the horrors of the caught "spy" being "changed and broken." I would tend to believe that the torment talked about here is mostly spiritual, and any torture of the body would be adapted to make that greater torture even more exquisite.
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05-06-2009, 07:14 PM | #8 |
Cryptic Aura
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I'm not sure if these quotes describe a purgatory as it is known in Christian theology. Purgatory is the process of purification of souls who haven't quite been good enough to make it directly into heaven but who don't merit hell either.
There's no intent to sanctify here but some form of fearful torment. However, since LotR does not specify what lies beyond the gift of death for Men, it difficult to say this is hell. Houses of lamentation is a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie. maybe he shares some of Saruman's eloquence. Whatever it is, it sounds worse than road rage.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 05-06-2009 at 07:25 PM. |
05-06-2009, 07:56 PM | #9 |
Gruesome Spectre
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You're right, of course, but I was at a loss for another title. It did seem to me as if Gorbag could be describing some middle ground between this world and next, though.
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05-07-2009, 04:17 AM | #10 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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There must be two approaches to torture in Mordor, I think.
I. One is physical and mental torture of living Men/Orcs. As refined, cruel and prolonged as it may be, it is by no means otherworldly and its time is necessarily limited (at least by the natural life-span of the prisoner). It takes a lot of art to keep the tortured prisoner alive, but once the tortured body can endure no longer and dies, the spirit is released and go to Mandos - and the prisoner is free, so to say. Not even Sauron can keep a houseless Men's fea from receiving the Gift. It seems it is this kind of torture that mostly goes on in Barad-Dur, both for Men and for Orcs (Black Pits): Quote:
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II. The other type of torture is definitely otherworldly. Sauron and his nazgul had discovered means to keep a Mannish fea in Middle-Earth for all eternity and do as they please with it. For that a Man has to be turned into an undead wraith. It can be done by Rings of Power (as with the nazgul), it can be done by a Morgul knife, likely it can be done by other Morgul methods inducing "living death." The Barrow-Wight's incantation comes to mind here - likely it attempted to plunge the bodies of the hobbits into death-like sleep while their spirits would be still bound to their hroar: Quote:
Such a fate (ETERNAL mental torture) was in store for Frodo, had he been captured on his way to Rivendell: Quote:
Now, unlike MOS, the nazgul definitely despised the first kind of torture, likely seeing it as a child's play, an easy way out. After all, cruel and cunning as he was, the Mouth was nothing but a child compared to the nazgul. It is psychologically understandable: things the undead Ringwraiths would find really scary should last for all eternity, not for pitiful decades. Thus they didn't hesitate to apply such a dreadful otherworldly punishment even to misbehaving orcs or random humans facing them on the battlefield. By the way, I believe the Houses of Lamentations were in Minas Morgul, not in Barad Dur. I see it as a place where lesser wraiths suffered prolonged mental torture. Bethberry commented that the "Houses of lamentation was a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie." It is poetic indeed, but much in line with the whole aspect of Witchie's abode, the Valley of Wraiths around Minas Morgul. Everything there is totally unlike the coarse Mordor proper: statues, misty river, meadows of pale flowers etc… like a scary enchanted dream. Last edited by Gordis; 05-07-2009 at 04:25 AM. |
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05-07-2009, 02:15 PM | #11 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Quote:
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"houses of lamentation" for me always conjures up the book Lamentations from the Bible. There, dirge-like, beautifully crafted poems lament the destruction of the Temple and the desolation of the faithful at the hands of the Babylonians. Of course, the destruction of the Temple led to an intense period of spirituality for the Israelites, leading to a religion that became centered not on temple but on book, so for me, ironically, Witch King is speaking of a situation wherein Eowyn ultimately will overcome the defeat he prophesises (although it will take the Houses of Healing to help Eowyn fulfil her victory). There's a great deal of female imagery in Lamentations, where the city Jerusalem is given a female voice. English literature has these echoes, which may be dying out.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 05-12-2009 at 03:18 PM. Reason: phantom menace |
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05-07-2009, 03:55 PM | #12 |
Sage & Onions
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Bad times
Just a quick comment,
The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe). Especially the plan to release him when 'changed and broken'. Perhaps as well as physical torture (see Gollum's fingers!) there would be mental torture - restrained and made to watch the fall of the West, death of friends and family, destruction of the Shire - in a Hurin-like fashion. Then the mysterious 'Houses of Lamentation' which seems to be some sort of spiritual torture. If Gordis' proposal is correct and Sauron can restrain the souls of mortals from 'The Gift' in some way, then does this not explain the 'Necromancer' tag?
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05-11-2009, 01:17 AM | #13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Sauron was certainly a Necromancer as was the WK. The problem is we are not told that the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur (who was not yet identified as Sauron) did such sort of things. He must have meddled with the undead to get his title, but we are simply not told what exactly it was. |
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05-11-2009, 06:16 AM | #14 | ||||
Wight
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Quote:
A lament is a poem/song that expresses the grief or mourning of loss - there is a lament to Gandalf in LOTR. Also, Beowulf, The Iliad and The Odyssey have lamental elements. You have laments in the Hindu Vedas, the Sumerians city lament about Ur - it is one of the oldest and widespread writing styles. But I might be getting off track, what I notice is the word play all revolving around "The Houses of lamentation." Quote:
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Thinking of this route, I wonder if Gollum was tormented not just in the dungeons of Barad-dur, but the Houses of lamentation. Didn't Gandalf say Gollum was getting better that he was healing? But he is captured by Sauron and is filled with a renewed lust to find the Ring and get it back. Then Gollum going through his own "lament of the Ring," not just grief for losing it, but the grief in knowing who has it and you can't get it back. Although Gollum does scheme to get it back, because he has the opportunity. Frodo would not have this opportunity if the Morgul knife was able to finish its job. I wonder if there is an actual physical "Houses of lamentation" or not, and there is no way I can answer that, but it seems more of a mental state. Being "taken" to the Houses of lamentation does not necessarily mean there is a physical place, it could be imagery. But there is definitely a severe torment connected to the HoL (I am paraphrasing now, because my finger are getting tired ). The reason I question if it is an actual place is because of the torment that Frodo would undergo when being taken to Sauron's throne, and it is a torment that would be greater than any physical torture Frodo would undergo. It could be similar to the torment Gollum undergoes, being Frodo's guide, but knowing he has his precious. "Houses of lamentation" could be a mental state, that the Nazgul (and Sauron) have the ability to inflict on people. Placing their victims in an almost permanent state of mental torture through loss, grief, and mourning. It is healthy to mourn, but a permanent state?...not good. And being taken away to the HoL is more poetic imagery of the permanent state of mourning the Nazgul have the ability to inflict on people. I think it is the very state and torment the Nazgul go through as well, so I wonder if the Nazgul can inflict the torment that they themselves go through? With Gorbag's quote... Quote:
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05-12-2009, 03:10 PM | #15 | |
Dread Horseman
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Unfortunately I don't have anything substantive to add to this very intriguing discussion, but I did think it worth mentioning that Colbert quoted the Witch-king on his most recent program, satirizing the "plain language" of his credit card contract (which he had to read with the aid of a loupe, of course):
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05-12-2009, 03:49 PM | #16 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I have to say I'm impressed and very much gratified by the response to this. Hopefully, I'll come up with something new to add to it myself!
And if Colbert is using LOTR quotes on his show, all the more reason for me to start watching it.
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05-12-2009, 05:17 PM | #17 |
Late Istar
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I thought of this thread when I was watching Colbert last night as well! It makes one think - perhaps the reason the prisoners in the houses of lamentation are not killed, per se, but rather 'left naked to the lidless eye' is so that, legally, Sauron and the credit card companies can still try to collect on the debt.
Incidentally, Colbert is a confirmed Tolkien fanatic - see the old interview here, for instance, where he even laments the changes to Faramir's character in the film. |
05-12-2009, 09:29 PM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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LOL!
I guess Eowyn understood not a word of this sophisticated threat. Pity she had so little interest in metaphysics (or was too distracted by her petty personal problems) to ask Wiki to elaborate : Eowyn: Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’ Wiki: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’ Eowyn: Er... sorry Mr Dwimmerlaik, I am not sure I get this ...what did you just say about lamentation? Wiki *purrs*: Come, I will ssshow you... |
05-13-2009, 12:12 PM | #19 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Seeing as Colbert is a LotR fan, as Aiwendil has said, I doubt anyone would be able to get lolcats on the show. Queen Beruthiel maybe . . . There's a statue of Aragorn/Viggo on the set and, when Queen Noor knighted him recently (just this past April), as leader of the Colbert Nation, she used a sword which looked suspiciously like Anduril. Sorry I can't provide a useful link, as Comedy Central won't let us Canucks in.
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05-13-2009, 06:49 PM | #20 |
Animated Skeleton
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Purgatory
I agree with Bethberry on the fact that purgatory is Christian, and that it is a place where you are purified before going to heaven. But, I may add on that purgatory is a place where you suffer to repay whatever sins you have committed during you lifetime.
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07-07-2011, 07:55 AM | #21 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I thought I'd bump this up, since the topic still intrigues me.
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07-07-2011, 01:55 PM | #22 | |||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I think that being "left naked to the lidless eye" means that your hroa is stripped away and your fea is left, well, naked. If it's a Nazgul purgatory, one is purified for Nazgul heaven.
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07-08-2011, 12:58 AM | #23 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Here's a creepy thought: What would a Nazgûl heaven entail?
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07-08-2011, 08:14 PM | #24 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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All the blood they could drink, and a supply of Melkor-Bradley® games?
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