Nazgûl Purgatory

[Inziladun]

Forgive me if this has been discussed here previously. I couldn't find anything recent, but nearly everything has been brought up on this forum at some time or other.
Not too long ago, while looking for a suitable P of F quote I stumbled upon this:

'No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. 'The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safer not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.'

(emphasis added) TT The Choices of Master Samwise

The other side? Of what? Somehow Gorbag doesn't seem to be speaking of death there. I'm reminded of the well known quote from the Witch-king:

'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

ROTK The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Gorbag and the Black Captain appear to be referring to the same thing.
The question is, what is this they reference? A place of physical and spirtual torture? 'Skin the body off you' certainly seems to indicate physical death, but the Lord of the Nazgûl states his threat is not to kill. Consciousness apparently survives in both cases.
Thoughts?

[Elmo]

Was Gorbag not just employing some sort of orcish black humour? When you the Nazgul kills you you'll be cold in the afterlife because it will have taken your skin in this life. hahaha sounds hilarious.

I'm sure the houses of lamentations are the torture chambers in Barad-Dur.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was Gorbag not just employing some sort of orcish black humour? When you the Nazgul kills you you'll be cold in the afterlife because it will have taken your skin in this life. hahaha sounds hilarious.

I suppose it's possible, but the tone of the words didn't seem humorous to me. He seemed to be genuinely fearful.

[Boromir88]

Interesting find and questions. I would not under estimate the possible spiritual, or some kind of connection to the parallel world of the Wraiths - living in both the seen and the unseen. "The houses of Lamentation" being in this "other side" Gorbag refers to, and is a place that does not sound like it would be humorous to be in.

I wonder about a mythological reference too, because there were 5 rivers that seperated Hades from the world of the living. The most well known is the River Styx, the River of hate. However, there is also Cocytus - the river of lamentation and the myth to this river is interesting considering the question. It was on the banks of the river of lamentation where the unburried wandered aimlessly for hundreds of years.

Also, I think what Gandalf and Eowyn say to the Witch-King may be important - what it tells us I don't know - but I will just bring it up to further consider the question:

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back t the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master! Go!"~Siege of Gondor

"You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."~The Battle of Pelennor Fieds

[Gordis]

Most interesting topic.

As to the meaning of the WK' words to Eowyn, I guess "thy flesh shall be devoured" might be simply an euphemism for fading, becoming invisible.

See what Eowyn replied to the WK in the LOTR draft, HOME 8:

'Come not between the Nazgul and his prey,' said a cold voice, 'or he will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked.'
She stood still and did not blench. 'I do not fear thee, Shadow,' she said. 'Nor him that devoured thee. Go back to him and report that his shadows and dwimor-lakes are powerless even to frighten women.' Home 8, "The battle of the Pelennor fields"

And note another occurrence of "devoured" re: nazgul themselves here:

Faramir: It is said that their lords were men of Númenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. - LOTR

So, it could well be that the Witch-King simply treatens Eowyn with using the Morgul knife or some similar spell making the body invisible in this World and relocated entirely into the Shadow-World, and the unhappy fea entrapped in it for all eternity, cold and naked, slave to Sauron forever.

Could it be much the same with orcs?
"Skin the body off you" doesn't sound like violent death and skinning. The orcs wouldn't be so impressed by simple physical violence, torture and the ugliest methods of death. They were experts at it themselves. And the Orcs were indeed impresed beyond words by what the nazgul could do:

'Nazgûl, Nazgûl,' said Grishnákh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. 'You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Uglúk,' he said. 'Nazgûl! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Most impressive topic! I have been always intrigued by that quote of Gorbag - this is why I referred to him "the only Orc who speaks of metaphysics". Okay, a few thoughts.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gorbag and the Black Captain appear to be referring to the same thing.
The question is, what is this they reference? A place of physical and spirtual torture? 'Skin the body off you' certainly seems to indicate physical death, but the Lord of the Nazgûl states his threat is not to kill. Consciousness apparently survives in both cases.
Thoughts?

First this. I am not completely sure whether both the places are the same. It seems to be related... but the WK's words might be actually referring to real torture, like somebody mentioned - some place in Barad-Dur or such. Or a metaphorical expression of being brought in front of Sauron?

I always imagined something horrible under that: like, really being brought in front of Sauron, while one's physical body would be really consumed, and only the spirit will remain - but for Sauron, it will be still visible, and he will be penetrating it with his gaze. Something similar was referred to by Lúthien, I believe, when Huan held Sauron by the throat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 19

Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: "There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower."

So it indeed may be that Gorbag was referring to the same thing, too. "The other side" would be after (physical) death, again.

Originally Posted by Gordis

"Skin the body off you" doesn't sound like violent death and skinning. The orcs wouldn't be so impressed by simple physical violence, torture and the ugliest methods of death. They were experts at it themselves. And the Orcs were indeed impresed beyond words by what the nazgul could do:

Oh, but I am sured they would, and that they did skin people every now and then. But you are right that the Nazgul incited more fear in them, for sure, and seemingly not fear just of mere violent physical death, but of something too scary (and possibly even ununderstandable, and therefore more scary) for an average Orc.

[Mnemosyne]

But I can think of one more example of torment--not from the Nine, mind, but from Barad-dur itself: what would have happened to Frodo without the grace of Gollum.

Granted, both these examples are sketchy: one is the Mouth of Sauron trying to trick Gandalf & co. into following his terms, and the other is Tolkien himself speculating in Letters, but here you go:

Originally Posted by Mouth of Sauron

Good, good! He was dear to you, I see. Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? It has. And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done. This shall surely be unless you accept my Lord's terms.

and

Originally Posted by Letter 246

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave.

The first quote is in fact describing a Ring-less situation, since Sauron did not understand the purpose in Frodo's journey; so it's probably more relevant here. Pippin later worries that Gandalf's response to the demands has doomed Frodo to "the torment of the Tower." So if the Lord of the Nine is referring to a physical place where all this tormenting is done, if it's not Barad-dur itself it may be quite like it.

It seems to be implying that wherever this place is, it would leave the body intact enough for the spirit to still be attached to it: otherwise most people would not be able to see the horrors of the caught "spy" being "changed and broken."

I would tend to believe that the torment talked about here is mostly spiritual, and any torture of the body would be adapted to make that greater torture even more exquisite.

[Bêthberry]

I'm not sure if these quotes describe a purgatory as it is known in Christian theology. Purgatory is the process of purification of souls who haven't quite been good enough to make it directly into heaven but who don't merit hell either.

There's no intent to sanctify here but some form of fearful torment. However, since LotR does not specify what lies beyond the gift of death for Men, it difficult to say this is hell.

Houses of lamentation is a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie. maybe he shares some of Saruman's eloquence.

Whatever it is, it sounds worse than road rage.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm not sure if these quotes describe a purgatory as it is known in Christian theology. Purgatory is the process of purification of souls who haven't quite been good enough to make it directly into heaven but who don't merit hell either.

You're right, of course, but I was at a loss for another title. It did seem to me as if Gorbag could be describing some middle ground between this world and next, though.

[Gordis]

There must be two approaches to torture in Mordor, I think.

I. One is physical and mental torture of living Men/Orcs. As refined, cruel and prolonged as it may be, it is by no means otherworldly and its time is necessarily limited (at least by the natural life-span of the prisoner). It takes a lot of art to keep the tortured prisoner alive, but once the tortured body can endure no longer and dies, the spirit is released and go to Mandos - and the prisoner is free, so to say. Not even Sauron can keep a houseless Men's fea from receiving the Gift.

It seems it is this kind of torture that mostly goes on in Barad-Dur, both for Men and for Orcs (Black Pits):

The Black Pits take that filthy rebel Gorbag!’ Shagrat’s voice trailed off into a string of foul names and curses. `I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him. You must go, or I’ll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we’ll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won’t escape by skulking here.’

It seems it is this kind of torture MOS refers to speaking of Frodo:

And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done.

I think, MOS, being a living Man, albeit a sorcerer, simply has limitations. He hasn't got access into the Spirit World himself and cannot move others there. Physical and mental torture of living prisoners is all he and his minions are capable of. If he feels something worse than that is in order, MOS has to ask Sauron to do it personally or send the prisoner to the nazgul in Minas Morgul. In both cases it is somewhat like a loss of face and I doubt MOS does it often, and only in most important cases. Frodo, who was considered simply a captured spy with no connection with the Ring, probably was not considered important enough.

II. The other type of torture is definitely otherworldly. Sauron and his nazgul had discovered means to keep a Mannish fea in Middle-Earth for all eternity and do as they please with it. For that a Man has to be turned into an undead wraith. It can be done by Rings of Power (as with the nazgul), it can be done by a Morgul knife, likely it can be done by other Morgul methods inducing "living death." The Barrow-Wight's incantation comes to mind here - likely it attempted to plunge the bodies of the hobbits into death-like sleep while their spirits would be still bound to their hroar:

Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone

Likely with Eowyn the Witch-King referred to some method other than the Morgul knife through the heart, because first he had to bear Eowyn away to the houses of Lamentation, where is seems the later transformation would take place: flesh devoured and shriveled mind will be left naked at the mercy of the Lidless Eye. Note that it certainly implied trapping her human fea in some way: so it couldn't have been simple death.

Such a fate (ETERNAL mental torture) was in store for Frodo, had he been captured on his way to Rivendell:

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'

I guess his place would have been in the Houses of Lamentation, if not at the foot of Sauron's throne.

Now, unlike MOS, the nazgul definitely despised the first kind of torture, likely seeing it as a child's play, an easy way out. After all, cruel and cunning as he was, the Mouth was nothing but a child compared to the nazgul. It is psychologically understandable: things the undead Ringwraiths would find really scary should last for all eternity, not for pitiful decades. Thus they didn't hesitate to apply such a dreadful otherworldly punishment even to misbehaving orcs or random humans facing them on the battlefield.

By the way, I believe the Houses of Lamentations were in Minas Morgul, not in Barad Dur. I see it as a place where lesser wraiths suffered prolonged mental torture.
Bethberry commented that the "Houses of lamentation was a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie." It is poetic indeed, but much in line with the whole aspect of Witchie's abode, the Valley of Wraiths around Minas Morgul. Everything there is totally unlike the coarse Mordor proper: statues, misty river, meadows of pale flowers etc… like a scary enchanted dream.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Iziladin

It did seem to me as if Gorbag could be describing some middle ground between this world and next, though.

Well, given you modify purgatory with "Nazgul", it stands as an intriguing oxymoron.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Bethberry commented that the "Houses of lamentation was a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie." It is poetic indeed, but much in line with the whole aspect of Witchie's abode, the Valley of Wraiths around Minas Morgul. Everything there is totally unlike the coarse Mordor proper: statues, misty river, meadows of pale flowers etc… like a scary enchanted dream.

Good point on the distinction between the two.

"houses of lamentation" for me always conjures up the book Lamentations from the Bible. There, dirge-like, beautifully crafted poems lament the destruction of the Temple and the desolation of the faithful at the hands of the Babylonians. Of course, the destruction of the Temple led to an intense period of spirituality for the Israelites, leading to a religion that became centered not on temple but on book, so for me, ironically, Witch King is speaking of a situation wherein Eowyn ultimately will overcome the defeat he prophesises (although it will take the Houses of Healing to help Eowyn fulfil her victory). There's a great deal of female imagery in Lamentations, where the city Jerusalem is given a female voice.

English literature has these echoes, which may be dying out.

[Rumil]

Just a quick comment,

The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe). Especially the plan to release him when 'changed and broken'.

Perhaps as well as physical torture (see Gollum's fingers!) there would be mental torture - restrained and made to watch the fall of the West, death of friends and family, destruction of the Shire - in a Hurin-like fashion.

Then the mysterious 'Houses of Lamentation' which seems to be some sort of spiritual torture. If Gordis' proposal is correct and Sauron can restrain the souls of mortals from 'The Gift' in some way, then does this not explain the 'Necromancer' tag?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Just a quick comment,

The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe). Especially the plan to release him when 'changed and broken'.

It seems releasing broken prisoners from Angband was almost a usual practice. Sauron is certainly as faithful to traditions as the West is.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Then the mysterious 'Houses of Lamentation' which seems to be some sort of spiritual torture. If Gordis' proposal is correct and Sauron can restrain the souls of mortals from 'The Gift' in some way, then does this not explain the 'Necromancer' tag?

Sauron was certainly a Necromancer as was the WK. The problem is we are not told that the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur (who was not yet identified as Sauron) did such sort of things. He must have meddled with the undead to get his title, but we are simply not told what exactly it was.

[Kent2010]

Houses of lamentation is a very poetic expression, not something I would have expected from Witchie. maybe he shares some of Saruman's eloquence.
-Bethberry

I think that is the purpose, whether the Houses of Lamentation are physically a place or not, there is intense imagery and lots of word play.

A lament is a poem/song that expresses the grief or mourning of loss - there is a lament to Gandalf in LOTR. Also, Beowulf, The Iliad and The Odyssey have lamental elements. You have laments in the Hindu Vedas, the Sumerians city lament about Ur - it is one of the oldest and widespread writing styles.

But I might be getting off track, what I notice is the word play all revolving around "The Houses of lamentation."

I guess his place would have been in the Houses of Lamentation, if not at the foot of Sauron's throne.
-Gordis

Considering what Frodo finds out in Rivendell about his wound, it is I think a good observation:

You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'

There might be two different types of torment here - the physical torment that would be inflicted by Sauron, on Frodo, for taking the Ring. But then the other kind of torment that would be "greater" Frodo's loss of the ring and seeing another have it. You might call it "Frodo's lament of the Ring," not just losing something so precious and desirable, but knowing someone else has it and you can't get it.

Thinking of this route, I wonder if Gollum was tormented not just in the dungeons of Barad-dur, but the Houses of lamentation. Didn't Gandalf say Gollum was getting better that he was healing? But he is captured by Sauron and is filled with a renewed lust to find the Ring and get it back. Then Gollum going through his own "lament of the Ring," not just grief for losing it, but the grief in knowing who has it and you can't get it back. Although Gollum does scheme to get it back, because he has the opportunity. Frodo would not have this opportunity if the Morgul knife was able to finish its job.

I wonder if there is an actual physical "Houses of lamentation" or not, and there is no way I can answer that, but it seems more of a mental state. Being "taken" to the Houses of lamentation does not necessarily mean there is a physical place, it could be imagery. But there is definitely a severe torment connected to the HoL (I am paraphrasing now, because my finger are getting tired ). The reason I question if it is an actual place is because of the torment that Frodo would undergo when being taken to Sauron's throne, and it is a torment that would be greater than any physical torture Frodo would undergo. It could be similar to the torment Gollum undergoes, being Frodo's guide, but knowing he has his precious.

"Houses of lamentation" could be a mental state, that the Nazgul (and Sauron) have the ability to inflict on people. Placing their victims in an almost permanent state of mental torture through loss, grief, and mourning. It is healthy to mourn, but a permanent state?...not good. And being taken away to the HoL is more poetic imagery of the permanent state of mourning the Nazgul have the ability to inflict on people. I think it is the very state and torment the Nazgul go through as well, so I wonder if the Nazgul can inflict the torment that they themselves go through?

With Gorbag's quote...

...And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you...

I don't interpret this as being able to skin somebody, but more as a terrifying description of the Nazgul, and why people should be terrified of them. That is these guys all backlashed to their mother's repeated attempts to make her boys more social - they don't ask questions, they don't make friends, they would much rather torture somebody.

[Mister Underhill]

Unfortunately I don't have anything substantive to add to this very intriguing discussion, but I did think it worth mentioning that Colbert quoted the Witch-king on his most recent program, satirizing the "plain language" of his credit card contract (which he had to read with the aid of a loupe, of course):

Originally Posted by Stephen Colbert

"Should the Borrower be found in default of payment more than fifteen days, we shall bear thee away to the houses of lamentation beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shrivelled mind left naked to the Lidless Eye!"... That seems pretty descriptive.

So Inziladun has not only found a rare untapped topic, but he's also tapped into some sort of zeitgeist. Or... someone here either is Colbert, or writes for him. Fess up! Bêthberry, I have my eye on you. If lolcats start turning up on the show, you'll officially be outed.

[Inziladun]

I have to say I'm impressed and very much gratified by the response to this. Hopefully, I'll come up with something new to add to it myself!
And if Colbert is using LOTR quotes on his show, all the more reason for me to start watching it.

[Aiwendil]

I thought of this thread when I was watching Colbert last night as well! It makes one think - perhaps the reason the prisoners in the houses of lamentation are not killed, per se, but rather 'left naked to the lidless eye' is so that, legally, Sauron and the credit card companies can still try to collect on the debt.

Incidentally, Colbert is a confirmed Tolkien fanatic - see the old interview here, for instance, where he even laments the changes to Faramir's character in the film.

[Gordis]

LOL!

I guess Eowyn understood not a word of this sophisticated threat. Pity she had so little interest in metaphysics (or was too distracted by her petty personal problems) to ask Wiki to elaborate :

Eowyn: Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’

Wiki: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’

Eowyn: Er... sorry Mr Dwimmerlaik, I am not sure I get this ...what did you just say about lamentation?

Wiki *purrs*: Come, I will ssshow you...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

So Inziladun has not only found a rare untapped topic, but he's also tapped into some sort of zeitgeist. Or... someone here either is Colbert, or writes for him. Fess up! Bêthberry, I have my eye on you. If lolcats start turning up on the show, you'll officially be outed.

Inziladun has done a great job!

Seeing as Colbert is a LotR fan, as Aiwendil has said, I doubt anyone would be able to get lolcats on the show. Queen Beruthiel maybe . . .

There's a statue of Aragorn/Viggo on the set and, when Queen Noor knighted him recently (just this past April), as leader of the Colbert Nation, she used a sword which looked suspiciously like Anduril. Sorry I can't provide a useful link, as Comedy Central won't let us Canucks in.

[Gaurcrist]

I agree with Bethberry on the fact that purgatory is Christian, and that it is a place where you are purified before going to heaven. But, I may add on that purgatory is a place where you suffer to repay whatever sins you have committed during you lifetime.

[Inziladun]

I thought I'd bump this up, since the topic still intrigues me.

[Galadriel55]

'No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. 'The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safer not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.

I've always interpreted "the other side" to be the other side of death, but that might be the influence of the Russian translation where it is clearly so.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's a great deal of female imagery in Lamentations, where the city Jerusalem is given a female voice.

I would attribute that to the lanuage itself rather than some poetic devise: "city" in Hebrew is feminine, therefore any city is referred to as a "she".

Originally Posted by Rumil

The Mouth's threats of Frodo's torture made me think of Hurin's torment by Morgoth (not necessarily, naturally, but maybe).

That also made me think about the "keeping the fea" issue. If I recall correctly, Morgoth made it so that Hurin couldn't move or die before Morgoth released him. This is not taking away the Gift completely, just delaying it. Maybe Sauron learned this trick from his master.

I think that being "left naked to the lidless eye" means that your hroa is stripped away and your fea is left, well, naked.

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

I agree with Bethberry on the fact that purgatory is Christian, and that it is a place where you are purified before going to heaven.

If it's a Nazgul purgatory, one is purified for Nazgul heaven.

[Eruhen]

Here's a creepy thought: What would a Nazgûl heaven entail?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I've always interpreted "the other side" to be the other side of death, but that might be the influence of the Russian translation where it is clearly so.

I'd thought Gorbag to be speaking of something worse than death there. Considering how expendable Sauron considers the Orcs to be, I wouldn't think they'd be all that fussed about merely dying. Perhaps they feared that the Nazgûl (via their submersion into Sauron's identity) had some means of bringing their prey into the same shadow-realm they inhabited. That seems to be a terrible, inescapable place of torment. Just how they'd accomplish it though, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Eruhen

Here's a creepy thought: What would a Nazgûl heaven entail?

All the blood they could drink, and a supply of Melkor-Bradley® games?