Why is it so difficult?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

To me, The Silmarillion is much more of a 'fantasy story' than The Lord of the Rings. The LotR presents you a fantastic story that you can just read from beginning to end without interruptions. The Sil clearly demands a little more from its reader. You actually have to utilise your own imagination and fantasy to make it come to life. Imagine the Sil was written with as much detail as the LotR. It'd be of the length of the whole HoMe, just plain story, no notes, no repetition. But the Sil doesn't present this to the reader, the reader has to do it itself.

A very good point here. To be read with enjoyment the Silmarillion absolutely demands that you utilize your imagination. Sit down in a comfortable chair, smoke a pipe for relaxation, and read slowly, very slowly. Ask yourself, how was it like on the plains of Ard-Galen on that cold winter night right before the Battle Of The Sudden Flame? What went through Húrin's mind when he faced the bare walls of the Crissaegrim and realized there was no return to Gondolin or the high hopes of his youth. Try to imagine how it was like when Haleth and her people heard the horns of Caranthir just as the Orics broke though their last line of defence. Three lines in this book may contain events and character descriptions that would take up tree pages or more in LotR, and if you just rush on trying to finish the book, those events and characters are lost. In order to really enjoy all the fantastic storielines, you have read between the lines and capture them yourself.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I definitely like LotR, Hobbit and the minor works more than the Sil, however I've found it to be helpful to read it with a specific interest in mind. I've recently gone through (= skimmed) almost all of Tolkien's works to find all references to music, and that has shown me interesting aspects. Suddenly there are connections between characters that I didn't see before.

So, if you are not the type of reader to take skip's advice and read it slowly, perhaps you will be able to get through if you read quickly and look for references to your favourite topic - dragons, swords, jewels, parent-children relationships, whatever. At any rate, use a copy in which you can underline interesting passages/quotes, so that you can find them when going back to the book.

[Thinlómien]

I never found the Silmarillion difficult, probably because I love history and old legends which it resembles, and also because it was read aloud to me already when I was less than 10 years old, so I learned all the names and places as effortlessly as kids learn new things.

I still have a piece of advice to offer and it goes along the same lines as what other people have said. It's easiest to start with the whole stories: Beren and Lúthien, Túrin Turambar (although I recommend reading Children of Húrin instead, it's much more comprehensive) and the Gondolin chapters (16 and 23). Of course they're all entwined with the general history so you may get confused if you haven't read the rest, but then you should ignore the general pattern and concentrate on the main characters, the actual story. Probably you will grow interested in the rest while you're reading the stories, so then it may feel more rewarding to read the whole book.

[Morthoron]

I loved reading the Silmarillion. Of course, I read it when it first was published, but years after devouring The Hobbit and LotR. There was so much to learn, and so many questions that were answered (and so many others that arose!). The creation stories, particularly the Ainulindalë, were breathtaking, and offered an intriguing and even more beautiful rendering of how the Universe came into being than in the static plopping of cows onto pastures on the 5th day as one found in the Christian Bible. There was music in the voices of the Ainur and music in the rhythmic beat of Tolkien's prose. As a teenager who reveled in Norse and Greek mythology and medieval history, it was an astounding find, akin to real-world mythos, but even more special because it was attached to endearing books. It completed a circle....or a ring, if you prefer.

[Kent2010]

I haven't read the Silmarillion, and maybe I should, but the reason I haven't is because I hear it is a lot different than the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. It is different, in the way that it suits different people, and that it doesn't read as a story like LOTR or The Hobbit.

At least from what I have heard. My dad wanted me to read the books before going to watch the movies, I didn't get finished with them before going to see the movies, but after I did finish reading LOTR I was amazed at the story. I wanted to read The Hobbit next, and my dad dug out his book and let me read it.

Then when I was at B&N, I saw another Tolkien book...The Silmarillion, I wanted to get it, but was convinced not to, because my dad said that besides LOTR and The Hobbit Tolkien's other stuff wasn't that good. He didn't like it because it wasn't the same and there were lots of "dry spots" that were difficult to get through. So, I never got it.

That shouldn't stop me now, but it does, basically because I have enough dry (and much more expensive) textbooks that for some reason is 'necessary' to spend money on, and The Silmarillion isn't the top of priority to figure out whether I like it or not.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I haven't read the Silmarillion, and maybe I should, but the reason I haven't is because I hear it is a lot different than the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit.

Perhaps you should try, as it will give you a different perspective on Middle-earth and Tolkien as a writer. The Sil is more akin to his translations (Gawaine, Beowulf, Sigurd, etc.) in that it evokes an arcane and ancient feeling that LotR only hints at. It may also aid you in discussions on this and other Tolkien fora.

[TheOrcWithNoName]

Well following on from my earlier post today I've now made a start on LOTR books for the first time in 7 or 8 years. And I've also dusted down my copy of The Sil because I am now quite looking forward to reading it but this time from a different less logical perspective.

I just hope this new found enthusiasm lasts by the time I have completed ROTK in a couple of weeks. Although I suppose there's nothing wrong with dipping into the book while still reading LOTR. Might even help a little

[FlimFlamSam]

Durelin spoke: [What is it that makes The Silmarillion more difficult for you (or anyone) to read? What makes it (more) 'boring' (to some)?]
Not so much difficult, unless you count all the other crap like Unfinished Tales, the HoME series, and everything else all lumped in with it, including Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Boring might be a better description. Creation myths make me retch. And the pseudo-Christianity gossamer veil underlying the tales just frankly irks me anyway. Myth should be shrouded in vagueness, not meticulously examined. The brief allusions in Lord of the Rings are enough. Too much, as it turns out--after he revised it.

Galin spoke: [Tolkien sought to publish the Silmarillion at this time, but (long story made short) it was rejected. He then works for a long time on The Lord of the Rings, and in the early 1950s, hoping that the Silmarillion will be published along with The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien expands and updates parts of QS and the Annals (taking up again the long prose versions of the Three Great Tales)]
Yeah, and then throws a bunch of stuff into the revised version of Lord of the Rings like a pimp whoring out some aged, flabby, mascara and poundcake-make-up encrusted and frankly nasty piece of work hoping to make an extra shilling on a two-for-one deal. Ever seen Cheech Marin outside the Titty-Twister in From Dusk till Dawn?

If they had published The Silmarillion then, he would have never written Lord of the Rings.

Borrowing a few allusions like Gondolin, Nargothrond, Beren & Bride, and little tid-bits is one thing to establish a backdrop. The Silmarillion (and other materials) is like George Lucas on a CGI-fest, re-writing his own material and saying "it's always been like that!". "Geedo always shot first!". "Anakin always looked like that!"

In a nut-shell, without my bias; The Silmarillion was never finished because Mr. Tolkien never really wanted to finish it, and it shows when reading it.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Yeah, and then throws a bunch of stuff into the revised version of Lord of the Rings like a pimp whoring out some aged, flabby, mascara and poundcake-make-up encrusted and frankly nasty piece of work hoping to make an extra shilling on a two-for-one deal. Ever seen Cheech Marin outside the Titty-Twister in From Dusk till Dawn?

Quoted just to make it clear that you, not me, are the author of these words.


In the future I would appreciate it -- if you choose to quote me for some reason -- that you do so with more distinction than simply putting my words in italic script (directly followed by your response without much of a break). Using the quote function is easy enough, like this.

Especially if you continue to respond in this manner.

[FlimFlamSam]

Galin spoke: [Quoted just to make it clear that you, not me, are the author of these words.]
So, you missed the "Galin spoke" part? There was a "Durelin spoke" as well first.

Galin spoke: [In the future I would appreciate it -- if you choose to quote me for some reason -- that you do so with more distinction than simply putting my words in italic script (directly followed by your response without much of a break).]
Multi-quoting. Just like in this post.
Nothing in the FAQ about quoting regulations.

Galin spoke: [Especially if you continue to respond in this manner.]
Yeppers.

Nerwen spoke: [Um... is this intentional trolling, or do you really not realise how absurdyou sound?]
Absurd? Nope. Trolling? Nope.

Nerwen spoke: [Come, on, Mr Flim Flam, 'fess up!]
I really just don't like it. I've spent nearly 30 years now wasting my time reading all the other books with meticulous care as they came out and have come to now LOATH The Silmarillion and attached materials in all forms except what is breifly alluded to in Lord of the Rings, and even then it's a stretch for me, simply due to past exposure to the other books.
Guilt by association, as it were.

Nerwen spoke: [And don't heap ridiculous verbal abuse on a long-dead author for having failed somehow to arrange all his creative efforts around you.]
It's called criticism.

Nerwen spoke: [Of course you're entitled not to like it, and to say so– but the way in you've expressed your opinion leaves much to be desired.]
I did say so. And your opinion was to say "absurd" and "ridiculous".
Something you are also "entitled" to say. See how that works?

I even gave a summary.
"In a nut-shell, without my bias; The Silmarillion was never finished because Mr. Tolkien never really wanted to finish it, and it shows when reading it."

[Galin]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

So, you missed the "Galin spoke" part? There was a "Durelin spoke" as well first.

No I didn't miss it, which is why I asked you to make more of a distinction, because 'Galin spoke' no such thing.

Nothing in the FAQ about quoting regulations.

It was, in any case, a request that you are free to ignore (as far as I know), unless moderation says otherwise for whatever reason.

[Nerwen]

Galin, he's just trying to pick fights. It's obvious.

[Nerwen]

@FlimFlamSam

Um... is this intentional trolling, or do you really not realise how absurd you sound?

I mean, some of us do happen to like the The Silm, and "all the other crap". Of course you're entitled not to like it, and to say so– but the way in you've expressed your opinion leaves much to be desired. After all, if you don't want to know any more of the background than appears in Lord of the Rings, there's an easy solution: don't read it. And don't heap ridiculous verbal abuse on a long-dead author for having failed somehow to arrange all his creative efforts around you.

If, on the other hand, this is all just a satire on the "Angry Fan Boy" persona, then well done! The pointless whining about "Star Wars" is an especially nice touch.

EDIT:X'd with Galin.

[Nerwen]

Galin, on re-reading this fellow's post, I believe this is all a leg-pull. No-one really gets that frotho about the bloody Silmarillion. Or about Tolkien having revised the second edition of Lord of the Rings. This is all a joke on the "they-changed-it-now-it-sucks" fanboy type. (Again, note Star Wars references.)

Come, on, Mr Flim Flam, 'fess up!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Galin spoke: [because 'Galin spoke' no such thing]
Galin spoke (ok, "wrote" to be technical) the words in parenthesis as quoted and then was replied to--by me.

To avoid confusion, there is another means of quoting others.

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Nerwen spoke: [he's just trying to pick fights. It's obvious.]
And... you'd be wrong again, on both counts.

The issue from my point of view is that you choose rather vulgar ways of making your case. For instance:

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Yeah, and then throws a bunch of stuff into the revised version of Lord of the Rings like a pimp whoring out some aged, flabby, mascara and poundcake-make-up encrusted and frankly nasty piece of work hoping to make an extra shilling on a two-for-one deal. Ever seen Cheech Marin outside the Titty-Twister in From Dusk till Dawn?

A little tact, and taste, goes a long way here.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

In a nut-shell, without my bias; The Silmarillion was never finished because Mr. Tolkien never really wanted to finish it, and it shows when reading it.

I disagree. I don't think it was Tolkien's goal to complete a book for the sake of completing it. He never wrote books for people to like them; he wasn't like the many modern authors writing what the audience expects them to. JRRT wrote what he thought was the right thing to write, not something that would "catch".

JRRT never made it his goal to finish The Sil, that's true. But one of his goals was to make his writings right. New ideas kept comming, and, as you well know, Tolkien was not an Elf.

You can see that The Sil was unfinished, but, personally, I never had the feeling that JRRT "didn't want to finish it". He didn't want to complete it until he was sure everthing was right, true, but that's different from what you say.


I will add myself to those asking you to quote others differently (like I did above). It makes posts much easier to read.


ETA:

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Nerwen spoke: [he's just trying to pick fights. It's obvious.]
And... you'd be wrong again, on both counts.

Well, it sure seems to me that Nerwen is right in this one. Maybe you can try phrasing your thoughts differently, so that we'll see that we're wrong?

[FlimFlamSam]

Galadriel55 spoke: [You can see that The Sil was unfinished, but, personally, I never had the feeling that JRRT "didn't want to finish it". He didn't want to complete it until he was sure everthing was right, true, but that's different from what you say.]
No, it was his lifelong hobby.
One he did not want to "finish".

Even when re-writing things from Lord of the Rings to better fit into his Silmarillion. Same as he did for The Hobbit to better fit with Lord of the Rings. "Until everything was right" is highly subjective.
He just plain liked to tinker, even with "completed" things.

Galadriel55 spoke: [Maybe you can try phrasing your thoughts differently, so that we'll see that we're wrong?]
All right. So I'll dismiss the long-standing covert letter campaign to Tolkien groups and their heads (and fans) alluding to his Silmarillion and complaining that readers wouldn't like it according to the publisher; along with letters to the publisher itself.

Or other little side-notes in things like The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle or The Adventures of Tom Bombadil trying to generate interest in fans for his mass of jumbled notes and half completed and often contrary tales he called The Silmarillion, where the general public believed it to be complete and ready for publication and simply shunned by the publishing company. Not to mention public appearances where the same was done.

It was simple martyr syndrome. A much more agreeable situation to him, especially as he was a self-admitted heavy-duty procrastinator (not only in writing but in his academic professorship duties as well--see the multitude of admitted instances in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien); and he received a ready excuse of sympathy from fans for enduring a long-suffered rebuke.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

All right. So I'll dismiss the long-standing covert letter campaign to Tolkien groups and their heads (and fans) alluding to his Silmarillion and complaining that readers wouldn't like it according to the publisher; along with letters to the publisher itself.

Or other little side-notes in things like The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle or The Adventures of Tom Bombadil trying to generate interest in fans for his mass of jumbled notes and half completed and often contrary tales he called The Silmarillion, where the general public believed it to be complete and ready for publication and simply shunned by the publishing company. Not to mention public appearances where the same was done.

Personally, I like the "finished" Silmarillion as a stand-alone work, for all its faults. I am grateful to CT for seeing to its publication.

You don't care for it, apparently. I think that's quite clear.

[Galin]

Christopher Tolkien gave his opinion (Morgth's Ring) that his father was 'deeply committed' to publishing The Silmarillion along with The Lord of the Rings, which I would say is somewhat reflected in Tolkien almost changing publishers...

... CJRT adding that despair of publication at this time was (he thinks) a prime cause that so much work on updating the Silmarillion in the early fifties came to a halt (includes introducing Galadriel to the Silmarilion, a new character, just for example) -- noting also that this break proved to be destructive with respect to the larger picture and the Silmarillion remaining unfinished.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Not so much difficult, unless you count all the other crap like Unfinished Tales, the HoME series, and everything else all lumped in with it, including Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Which many of us enjoy on this site, and you're setting yourself up to be greatly mocked.

Boring might be a better description. Creation myths make me retch.

Hey, I'm not a doctor, but I think I have a solution for this retching of yours. If creation myths make you retch, don't read them.

Yeah, and then throws a bunch of stuff into the revised version of Lord of the Rings like a pimp whoring out some aged, flabby, mascara and poundcake-make-up encrusted and frankly nasty piece of work hoping to make an extra shilling on a two-for-one deal.

I'm not sure which part of that abusive, partially misogynist statement to attack first. Did you have a bad experience with a prostitute then? Is that why you're in such a bad mood?

If they had published The Silmarillion then, he would have never written Lord of the Rings.

And...? Guess what, and I don't want to shock you, but - he's the author. He gets to decide what he writes.

In a nut-shell, without my bias; The Silmarillion was never finished because Mr. Tolkien never really wanted to finish it, and it shows when reading it.

Bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question.
Your prejudice against the Silm seems to be crowding your ability to fully consider anything anybody else says. You want to know why the Silm shows it was never finished - because Tolkien died while writing his myth, and it was put together after his death by his son. So in your mind, dying = not wanting to finish it. Okkaayyy....

Nothing in the FAQ about quoting regulations.

I think the mods assumed that anybody posting here would be able to understand that the quote tool was there for a reason - clearly, as you have proved, they vastly overestimated the intelligence of trolls/idiots (as you deny you are the first, you must be assumed that latter.)

I really just don't like it. I've spent nearly 30 years now wasting my time reading all the other books with meticulous care as they came out and have come to now LOATH The Silmarillion and attached materials in all forms except what is breifly alluded to in Lord of the Rings, and even then it's a stretch for me, simply due to past exposure to the other books.

I've heard of slow readers, but really? It took you 30 years to realize you didn't like a book? Wow. You must have read a word a day.

It's called criticism.

It's called this is a fansite (note the FAN part), and criticism does not necessitate harsh words, insults, or small minds that refuse to admit any opinion but there own is right.

I did say so. And your opinion was to say "absurd" and "ridiculous".

No, she said the manner in which you expressed yourself was absurd and ridiculous. Perhaps a class in reading comprehension is in order?

No, it was his lifelong hobby.
One he did not want to "finish".

Oh! I see, Tolkien should have quit his job and lived on the dole, just so that he could work on the books 24/7. He could even have sent his kids off to boot camp or something, so there would be no distractions. /sarcasm

He just plain liked to tinker, even with "completed" things.

And that is wrong because? It was his work - he was free to do whatever he wanted with it.

All right. So I'll dismiss the long-standing covert letter campaign to Tolkien groups and their heads (and fans) alluding to his Silmarillion and complaining that readers wouldn't like it according to the publisher; along with letters to the publisher itself.

Again, it's wrong for him to mention that he disagrees with the publisher because why?

[FlimFlamSam]

Morthoron spoke: [but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material.]
Suddenly? Nope.
Nor am I new here. Well, I haven't posted for about 10-12 years here or thereabouts, so I guess that does make me new or a newcomer in a manner of speaking.
The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet. They knew The Silmarillion had burned me out back then, and one of the reasons I left.

Not to toot any horns really--especially in this very ironic sense considering my now long-standing views--but it was using HOME and other texts in creating a cohesive Silmarillion for myself and mentioning in a discussion thread regarding the Lord of the Rings Epilogue the merging of texts that I had done that led to the idea of the Translation from the Elvish project here as a cooperative venture based on The Silmarillion merging I had already done. The idea of doing it again--in committee no less... no way.
In retrospect, I wish I had never done it. But what is done is done.

Since then, my gag-reflex towards those materials, including UT, and everything else not strictly Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit has taken irreversible hold. Inversely, my appreciation for those two books has increased.
In "tailoring to me", I do that myself on those texts, removing and altering as much of the offending material as I wish.

As for attacks against me from others... knock yourselves out.
I have attacked no poster. I have summarized my views in appropriate threads and paraphrased some letters and posted on fairly recent topics in others as digging up new threads months old serves little purpose. I have done some criticism of Mr Tolkien and his work. That seems to upset some people--in some cases deeply. Oh well.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Morthoron spoke: [but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material.]
Suddenly? Nope.
Nor am I new here. Well, I haven't posted for about 10-12 years here or thereabouts, so I guess that does make me new or a newcomer in a manner of speaking.
The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet. They knew The Silmarillion had burned me out back then, and one of the reasons I left.

So, you held the same opinion a decade ago, but decided to reiterate the same unproductive rhetoric in case any of the newer posters missed it? From the tenor of your posts, it seems unlikely you are interested in discussion, so what is the point?

And how interesting that you forgot your original sign-in name, yet were able to recall four other members by name from 10-12 years ago. That sort of selective memory must be incredibly rare. One could say nonexistent. Rather like your posting etiquette (and you can quote me on it, if you can actually use the quote function).